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innovation-hacking2

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[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"" ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed." ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care." ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed." ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame." ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!" ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at." ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free." ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door." ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free" ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not." ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨" ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd." ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?" ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play" ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'." ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back" ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property." ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime." ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort" ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time." ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo" ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states." ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century." ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say." ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?" ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'." ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?" ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past." ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it" ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost." ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin." ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for" ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners" ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?" ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks" ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there." ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?" ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?", ">\n\nOne day Egyptian Museum directors will steal the gates to Buckingham Palace to put them on display, while the Greeks acquire Big Ben and put it on display in the middle of some plaza." ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?", ">\n\nOne day Egyptian Museum directors will steal the gates to Buckingham Palace to put them on display, while the Greeks acquire Big Ben and put it on display in the middle of some plaza.", ">\n\nYeah, if we sell them to Egypt and Greece then what recourse do we have. Wait 500 years and then claim they were stolen because.... \nYour talking about a nation that is going through 100 years of managed decline. We are pretty used to not having everything go our way. When was the last time Britain said a peep about our ancestral land of Normandy?" ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?", ">\n\nOne day Egyptian Museum directors will steal the gates to Buckingham Palace to put them on display, while the Greeks acquire Big Ben and put it on display in the middle of some plaza.", ">\n\nYeah, if we sell them to Egypt and Greece then what recourse do we have. Wait 500 years and then claim they were stolen because.... \nYour talking about a nation that is going through 100 years of managed decline. We are pretty used to not having everything go our way. When was the last time Britain said a peep about our ancestral land of Normandy?", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?" ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?", ">\n\nOne day Egyptian Museum directors will steal the gates to Buckingham Palace to put them on display, while the Greeks acquire Big Ben and put it on display in the middle of some plaza.", ">\n\nYeah, if we sell them to Egypt and Greece then what recourse do we have. Wait 500 years and then claim they were stolen because.... \nYour talking about a nation that is going through 100 years of managed decline. We are pretty used to not having everything go our way. When was the last time Britain said a peep about our ancestral land of Normandy?", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\n\"Do you have a flag?\"" ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?", ">\n\nOne day Egyptian Museum directors will steal the gates to Buckingham Palace to put them on display, while the Greeks acquire Big Ben and put it on display in the middle of some plaza.", ">\n\nYeah, if we sell them to Egypt and Greece then what recourse do we have. Wait 500 years and then claim they were stolen because.... \nYour talking about a nation that is going through 100 years of managed decline. We are pretty used to not having everything go our way. When was the last time Britain said a peep about our ancestral land of Normandy?", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\n\"Do you have a flag?\"", ">\n\nI’m sure she is saying this just as a dog-whistle and to make trouble with the EU. It’s probably why she was given the job, because she’s well qualified." ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?", ">\n\nOne day Egyptian Museum directors will steal the gates to Buckingham Palace to put them on display, while the Greeks acquire Big Ben and put it on display in the middle of some plaza.", ">\n\nYeah, if we sell them to Egypt and Greece then what recourse do we have. Wait 500 years and then claim they were stolen because.... \nYour talking about a nation that is going through 100 years of managed decline. We are pretty used to not having everything go our way. When was the last time Britain said a peep about our ancestral land of Normandy?", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\n\"Do you have a flag?\"", ">\n\nI’m sure she is saying this just as a dog-whistle and to make trouble with the EU. It’s probably why she was given the job, because she’s well qualified.", ">\n\n\"We stole them fair and square\"." ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?", ">\n\nOne day Egyptian Museum directors will steal the gates to Buckingham Palace to put them on display, while the Greeks acquire Big Ben and put it on display in the middle of some plaza.", ">\n\nYeah, if we sell them to Egypt and Greece then what recourse do we have. Wait 500 years and then claim they were stolen because.... \nYour talking about a nation that is going through 100 years of managed decline. We are pretty used to not having everything go our way. When was the last time Britain said a peep about our ancestral land of Normandy?", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\n\"Do you have a flag?\"", ">\n\nI’m sure she is saying this just as a dog-whistle and to make trouble with the EU. It’s probably why she was given the job, because she’s well qualified.", ">\n\n\"We stole them fair and square\".", ">\n\nDragon hoarding gold says all the gold belongs to dragon" ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?", ">\n\nOne day Egyptian Museum directors will steal the gates to Buckingham Palace to put them on display, while the Greeks acquire Big Ben and put it on display in the middle of some plaza.", ">\n\nYeah, if we sell them to Egypt and Greece then what recourse do we have. Wait 500 years and then claim they were stolen because.... \nYour talking about a nation that is going through 100 years of managed decline. We are pretty used to not having everything go our way. When was the last time Britain said a peep about our ancestral land of Normandy?", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\n\"Do you have a flag?\"", ">\n\nI’m sure she is saying this just as a dog-whistle and to make trouble with the EU. It’s probably why she was given the job, because she’s well qualified.", ">\n\n\"We stole them fair and square\".", ">\n\nDragon hoarding gold says all the gold belongs to dragon", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not." ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?", ">\n\nOne day Egyptian Museum directors will steal the gates to Buckingham Palace to put them on display, while the Greeks acquire Big Ben and put it on display in the middle of some plaza.", ">\n\nYeah, if we sell them to Egypt and Greece then what recourse do we have. Wait 500 years and then claim they were stolen because.... \nYour talking about a nation that is going through 100 years of managed decline. We are pretty used to not having everything go our way. When was the last time Britain said a peep about our ancestral land of Normandy?", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\n\"Do you have a flag?\"", ">\n\nI’m sure she is saying this just as a dog-whistle and to make trouble with the EU. It’s probably why she was given the job, because she’s well qualified.", ">\n\n\"We stole them fair and square\".", ">\n\nDragon hoarding gold says all the gold belongs to dragon", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be..." ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?", ">\n\nOne day Egyptian Museum directors will steal the gates to Buckingham Palace to put them on display, while the Greeks acquire Big Ben and put it on display in the middle of some plaza.", ">\n\nYeah, if we sell them to Egypt and Greece then what recourse do we have. Wait 500 years and then claim they were stolen because.... \nYour talking about a nation that is going through 100 years of managed decline. We are pretty used to not having everything go our way. When was the last time Britain said a peep about our ancestral land of Normandy?", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\n\"Do you have a flag?\"", ">\n\nI’m sure she is saying this just as a dog-whistle and to make trouble with the EU. It’s probably why she was given the job, because she’s well qualified.", ">\n\n\"We stole them fair and square\".", ">\n\nDragon hoarding gold says all the gold belongs to dragon", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that" ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?", ">\n\nOne day Egyptian Museum directors will steal the gates to Buckingham Palace to put them on display, while the Greeks acquire Big Ben and put it on display in the middle of some plaza.", ">\n\nYeah, if we sell them to Egypt and Greece then what recourse do we have. Wait 500 years and then claim they were stolen because.... \nYour talking about a nation that is going through 100 years of managed decline. We are pretty used to not having everything go our way. When was the last time Britain said a peep about our ancestral land of Normandy?", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\n\"Do you have a flag?\"", ">\n\nI’m sure she is saying this just as a dog-whistle and to make trouble with the EU. It’s probably why she was given the job, because she’s well qualified.", ">\n\n\"We stole them fair and square\".", ">\n\nDragon hoarding gold says all the gold belongs to dragon", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?" ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?", ">\n\nOne day Egyptian Museum directors will steal the gates to Buckingham Palace to put them on display, while the Greeks acquire Big Ben and put it on display in the middle of some plaza.", ">\n\nYeah, if we sell them to Egypt and Greece then what recourse do we have. Wait 500 years and then claim they were stolen because.... \nYour talking about a nation that is going through 100 years of managed decline. We are pretty used to not having everything go our way. When was the last time Britain said a peep about our ancestral land of Normandy?", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\n\"Do you have a flag?\"", ">\n\nI’m sure she is saying this just as a dog-whistle and to make trouble with the EU. It’s probably why she was given the job, because she’s well qualified.", ">\n\n\"We stole them fair and square\".", ">\n\nDragon hoarding gold says all the gold belongs to dragon", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts." ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?", ">\n\nOne day Egyptian Museum directors will steal the gates to Buckingham Palace to put them on display, while the Greeks acquire Big Ben and put it on display in the middle of some plaza.", ">\n\nYeah, if we sell them to Egypt and Greece then what recourse do we have. Wait 500 years and then claim they were stolen because.... \nYour talking about a nation that is going through 100 years of managed decline. We are pretty used to not having everything go our way. When was the last time Britain said a peep about our ancestral land of Normandy?", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\n\"Do you have a flag?\"", ">\n\nI’m sure she is saying this just as a dog-whistle and to make trouble with the EU. It’s probably why she was given the job, because she’s well qualified.", ">\n\n\"We stole them fair and square\".", ">\n\nDragon hoarding gold says all the gold belongs to dragon", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them." ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?", ">\n\nOne day Egyptian Museum directors will steal the gates to Buckingham Palace to put them on display, while the Greeks acquire Big Ben and put it on display in the middle of some plaza.", ">\n\nYeah, if we sell them to Egypt and Greece then what recourse do we have. Wait 500 years and then claim they were stolen because.... \nYour talking about a nation that is going through 100 years of managed decline. We are pretty used to not having everything go our way. When was the last time Britain said a peep about our ancestral land of Normandy?", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\n\"Do you have a flag?\"", ">\n\nI’m sure she is saying this just as a dog-whistle and to make trouble with the EU. It’s probably why she was given the job, because she’s well qualified.", ">\n\n\"We stole them fair and square\".", ">\n\nDragon hoarding gold says all the gold belongs to dragon", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground." ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?", ">\n\nOne day Egyptian Museum directors will steal the gates to Buckingham Palace to put them on display, while the Greeks acquire Big Ben and put it on display in the middle of some plaza.", ">\n\nYeah, if we sell them to Egypt and Greece then what recourse do we have. Wait 500 years and then claim they were stolen because.... \nYour talking about a nation that is going through 100 years of managed decline. We are pretty used to not having everything go our way. When was the last time Britain said a peep about our ancestral land of Normandy?", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\n\"Do you have a flag?\"", ">\n\nI’m sure she is saying this just as a dog-whistle and to make trouble with the EU. It’s probably why she was given the job, because she’s well qualified.", ">\n\n\"We stole them fair and square\".", ">\n\nDragon hoarding gold says all the gold belongs to dragon", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years." ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?", ">\n\nOne day Egyptian Museum directors will steal the gates to Buckingham Palace to put them on display, while the Greeks acquire Big Ben and put it on display in the middle of some plaza.", ">\n\nYeah, if we sell them to Egypt and Greece then what recourse do we have. Wait 500 years and then claim they were stolen because.... \nYour talking about a nation that is going through 100 years of managed decline. We are pretty used to not having everything go our way. When was the last time Britain said a peep about our ancestral land of Normandy?", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\n\"Do you have a flag?\"", ">\n\nI’m sure she is saying this just as a dog-whistle and to make trouble with the EU. It’s probably why she was given the job, because she’s well qualified.", ">\n\n\"We stole them fair and square\".", ">\n\nDragon hoarding gold says all the gold belongs to dragon", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction." ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?", ">\n\nOne day Egyptian Museum directors will steal the gates to Buckingham Palace to put them on display, while the Greeks acquire Big Ben and put it on display in the middle of some plaza.", ">\n\nYeah, if we sell them to Egypt and Greece then what recourse do we have. Wait 500 years and then claim they were stolen because.... \nYour talking about a nation that is going through 100 years of managed decline. We are pretty used to not having everything go our way. When was the last time Britain said a peep about our ancestral land of Normandy?", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\n\"Do you have a flag?\"", ">\n\nI’m sure she is saying this just as a dog-whistle and to make trouble with the EU. It’s probably why she was given the job, because she’s well qualified.", ">\n\n\"We stole them fair and square\".", ">\n\nDragon hoarding gold says all the gold belongs to dragon", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?" ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?", ">\n\nOne day Egyptian Museum directors will steal the gates to Buckingham Palace to put them on display, while the Greeks acquire Big Ben and put it on display in the middle of some plaza.", ">\n\nYeah, if we sell them to Egypt and Greece then what recourse do we have. Wait 500 years and then claim they were stolen because.... \nYour talking about a nation that is going through 100 years of managed decline. We are pretty used to not having everything go our way. When was the last time Britain said a peep about our ancestral land of Normandy?", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\n\"Do you have a flag?\"", ">\n\nI’m sure she is saying this just as a dog-whistle and to make trouble with the EU. It’s probably why she was given the job, because she’s well qualified.", ">\n\n\"We stole them fair and square\".", ">\n\nDragon hoarding gold says all the gold belongs to dragon", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them." ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?", ">\n\nOne day Egyptian Museum directors will steal the gates to Buckingham Palace to put them on display, while the Greeks acquire Big Ben and put it on display in the middle of some plaza.", ">\n\nYeah, if we sell them to Egypt and Greece then what recourse do we have. Wait 500 years and then claim they were stolen because.... \nYour talking about a nation that is going through 100 years of managed decline. We are pretty used to not having everything go our way. When was the last time Britain said a peep about our ancestral land of Normandy?", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\n\"Do you have a flag?\"", ">\n\nI’m sure she is saying this just as a dog-whistle and to make trouble with the EU. It’s probably why she was given the job, because she’s well qualified.", ">\n\n\"We stole them fair and square\".", ">\n\nDragon hoarding gold says all the gold belongs to dragon", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nDon’t see Italy returning all the Obelisks the Romans looted to Egypt." ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?", ">\n\nOne day Egyptian Museum directors will steal the gates to Buckingham Palace to put them on display, while the Greeks acquire Big Ben and put it on display in the middle of some plaza.", ">\n\nYeah, if we sell them to Egypt and Greece then what recourse do we have. Wait 500 years and then claim they were stolen because.... \nYour talking about a nation that is going through 100 years of managed decline. We are pretty used to not having everything go our way. When was the last time Britain said a peep about our ancestral land of Normandy?", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\n\"Do you have a flag?\"", ">\n\nI’m sure she is saying this just as a dog-whistle and to make trouble with the EU. It’s probably why she was given the job, because she’s well qualified.", ">\n\n\"We stole them fair and square\".", ">\n\nDragon hoarding gold says all the gold belongs to dragon", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nDon’t see Italy returning all the Obelisks the Romans looted to Egypt.", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England." ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?", ">\n\nOne day Egyptian Museum directors will steal the gates to Buckingham Palace to put them on display, while the Greeks acquire Big Ben and put it on display in the middle of some plaza.", ">\n\nYeah, if we sell them to Egypt and Greece then what recourse do we have. Wait 500 years and then claim they were stolen because.... \nYour talking about a nation that is going through 100 years of managed decline. We are pretty used to not having everything go our way. When was the last time Britain said a peep about our ancestral land of Normandy?", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\n\"Do you have a flag?\"", ">\n\nI’m sure she is saying this just as a dog-whistle and to make trouble with the EU. It’s probably why she was given the job, because she’s well qualified.", ">\n\n\"We stole them fair and square\".", ">\n\nDragon hoarding gold says all the gold belongs to dragon", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nDon’t see Italy returning all the Obelisks the Romans looted to Egypt.", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story." ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?", ">\n\nOne day Egyptian Museum directors will steal the gates to Buckingham Palace to put them on display, while the Greeks acquire Big Ben and put it on display in the middle of some plaza.", ">\n\nYeah, if we sell them to Egypt and Greece then what recourse do we have. Wait 500 years and then claim they were stolen because.... \nYour talking about a nation that is going through 100 years of managed decline. We are pretty used to not having everything go our way. When was the last time Britain said a peep about our ancestral land of Normandy?", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\n\"Do you have a flag?\"", ">\n\nI’m sure she is saying this just as a dog-whistle and to make trouble with the EU. It’s probably why she was given the job, because she’s well qualified.", ">\n\n\"We stole them fair and square\".", ">\n\nDragon hoarding gold says all the gold belongs to dragon", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nDon’t see Italy returning all the Obelisks the Romans looted to Egypt.", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nIf they were taken to be protected from the occupying Turks why haven’t they been returned now the Greece won its independence and the Ottomans don’t exist anymore" ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?", ">\n\nOne day Egyptian Museum directors will steal the gates to Buckingham Palace to put them on display, while the Greeks acquire Big Ben and put it on display in the middle of some plaza.", ">\n\nYeah, if we sell them to Egypt and Greece then what recourse do we have. Wait 500 years and then claim they were stolen because.... \nYour talking about a nation that is going through 100 years of managed decline. We are pretty used to not having everything go our way. When was the last time Britain said a peep about our ancestral land of Normandy?", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\n\"Do you have a flag?\"", ">\n\nI’m sure she is saying this just as a dog-whistle and to make trouble with the EU. It’s probably why she was given the job, because she’s well qualified.", ">\n\n\"We stole them fair and square\".", ">\n\nDragon hoarding gold says all the gold belongs to dragon", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nDon’t see Italy returning all the Obelisks the Romans looted to Egypt.", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nIf they were taken to be protected from the occupying Turks why haven’t they been returned now the Greece won its independence and the Ottomans don’t exist anymore", ">\n\nBecause there is no requirement for them to be returned. \nIt's a 'nice' thing to say you could put them back. But it's not required morally or ethically in this specific situation. \nAll you can do is appeal to nationism from this point on wards. If the British Government sold the London Bridge to some dude in the US, then that is that done and dusted. \nA British government 300 years in the future has no RIGHT to demand London Bridge back despite it's historical significance to us. \nWe could ask, but that's it. \nThis entire discussion hinges on supporting Greek Nationalism and putting down British Nationalism." ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?", ">\n\nOne day Egyptian Museum directors will steal the gates to Buckingham Palace to put them on display, while the Greeks acquire Big Ben and put it on display in the middle of some plaza.", ">\n\nYeah, if we sell them to Egypt and Greece then what recourse do we have. Wait 500 years and then claim they were stolen because.... \nYour talking about a nation that is going through 100 years of managed decline. We are pretty used to not having everything go our way. When was the last time Britain said a peep about our ancestral land of Normandy?", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\n\"Do you have a flag?\"", ">\n\nI’m sure she is saying this just as a dog-whistle and to make trouble with the EU. It’s probably why she was given the job, because she’s well qualified.", ">\n\n\"We stole them fair and square\".", ">\n\nDragon hoarding gold says all the gold belongs to dragon", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nDon’t see Italy returning all the Obelisks the Romans looted to Egypt.", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nIf they were taken to be protected from the occupying Turks why haven’t they been returned now the Greece won its independence and the Ottomans don’t exist anymore", ">\n\nBecause there is no requirement for them to be returned. \nIt's a 'nice' thing to say you could put them back. But it's not required morally or ethically in this specific situation. \nAll you can do is appeal to nationism from this point on wards. If the British Government sold the London Bridge to some dude in the US, then that is that done and dusted. \nA British government 300 years in the future has no RIGHT to demand London Bridge back despite it's historical significance to us. \nWe could ask, but that's it. \nThis entire discussion hinges on supporting Greek Nationalism and putting down British Nationalism.", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken." ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?", ">\n\nOne day Egyptian Museum directors will steal the gates to Buckingham Palace to put them on display, while the Greeks acquire Big Ben and put it on display in the middle of some plaza.", ">\n\nYeah, if we sell them to Egypt and Greece then what recourse do we have. Wait 500 years and then claim they were stolen because.... \nYour talking about a nation that is going through 100 years of managed decline. We are pretty used to not having everything go our way. When was the last time Britain said a peep about our ancestral land of Normandy?", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\n\"Do you have a flag?\"", ">\n\nI’m sure she is saying this just as a dog-whistle and to make trouble with the EU. It’s probably why she was given the job, because she’s well qualified.", ">\n\n\"We stole them fair and square\".", ">\n\nDragon hoarding gold says all the gold belongs to dragon", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nDon’t see Italy returning all the Obelisks the Romans looted to Egypt.", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nIf they were taken to be protected from the occupying Turks why haven’t they been returned now the Greece won its independence and the Ottomans don’t exist anymore", ">\n\nBecause there is no requirement for them to be returned. \nIt's a 'nice' thing to say you could put them back. But it's not required morally or ethically in this specific situation. \nAll you can do is appeal to nationism from this point on wards. If the British Government sold the London Bridge to some dude in the US, then that is that done and dusted. \nA British government 300 years in the future has no RIGHT to demand London Bridge back despite it's historical significance to us. \nWe could ask, but that's it. \nThis entire discussion hinges on supporting Greek Nationalism and putting down British Nationalism.", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nMost of the heritage wasn't taken. It was ground down and used as building materials. \nIt's revisionist to go \"the reason so much is missing is because of theft\"" ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?", ">\n\nOne day Egyptian Museum directors will steal the gates to Buckingham Palace to put them on display, while the Greeks acquire Big Ben and put it on display in the middle of some plaza.", ">\n\nYeah, if we sell them to Egypt and Greece then what recourse do we have. Wait 500 years and then claim they were stolen because.... \nYour talking about a nation that is going through 100 years of managed decline. We are pretty used to not having everything go our way. When was the last time Britain said a peep about our ancestral land of Normandy?", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\n\"Do you have a flag?\"", ">\n\nI’m sure she is saying this just as a dog-whistle and to make trouble with the EU. It’s probably why she was given the job, because she’s well qualified.", ">\n\n\"We stole them fair and square\".", ">\n\nDragon hoarding gold says all the gold belongs to dragon", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nDon’t see Italy returning all the Obelisks the Romans looted to Egypt.", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nIf they were taken to be protected from the occupying Turks why haven’t they been returned now the Greece won its independence and the Ottomans don’t exist anymore", ">\n\nBecause there is no requirement for them to be returned. \nIt's a 'nice' thing to say you could put them back. But it's not required morally or ethically in this specific situation. \nAll you can do is appeal to nationism from this point on wards. If the British Government sold the London Bridge to some dude in the US, then that is that done and dusted. \nA British government 300 years in the future has no RIGHT to demand London Bridge back despite it's historical significance to us. \nWe could ask, but that's it. \nThis entire discussion hinges on supporting Greek Nationalism and putting down British Nationalism.", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nMost of the heritage wasn't taken. It was ground down and used as building materials. \nIt's revisionist to go \"the reason so much is missing is because of theft\"", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage." ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?", ">\n\nOne day Egyptian Museum directors will steal the gates to Buckingham Palace to put them on display, while the Greeks acquire Big Ben and put it on display in the middle of some plaza.", ">\n\nYeah, if we sell them to Egypt and Greece then what recourse do we have. Wait 500 years and then claim they were stolen because.... \nYour talking about a nation that is going through 100 years of managed decline. We are pretty used to not having everything go our way. When was the last time Britain said a peep about our ancestral land of Normandy?", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\n\"Do you have a flag?\"", ">\n\nI’m sure she is saying this just as a dog-whistle and to make trouble with the EU. It’s probably why she was given the job, because she’s well qualified.", ">\n\n\"We stole them fair and square\".", ">\n\nDragon hoarding gold says all the gold belongs to dragon", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nDon’t see Italy returning all the Obelisks the Romans looted to Egypt.", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nIf they were taken to be protected from the occupying Turks why haven’t they been returned now the Greece won its independence and the Ottomans don’t exist anymore", ">\n\nBecause there is no requirement for them to be returned. \nIt's a 'nice' thing to say you could put them back. But it's not required morally or ethically in this specific situation. \nAll you can do is appeal to nationism from this point on wards. If the British Government sold the London Bridge to some dude in the US, then that is that done and dusted. \nA British government 300 years in the future has no RIGHT to demand London Bridge back despite it's historical significance to us. \nWe could ask, but that's it. \nThis entire discussion hinges on supporting Greek Nationalism and putting down British Nationalism.", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nMost of the heritage wasn't taken. It was ground down and used as building materials. \nIt's revisionist to go \"the reason so much is missing is because of theft\"", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it." ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?", ">\n\nOne day Egyptian Museum directors will steal the gates to Buckingham Palace to put them on display, while the Greeks acquire Big Ben and put it on display in the middle of some plaza.", ">\n\nYeah, if we sell them to Egypt and Greece then what recourse do we have. Wait 500 years and then claim they were stolen because.... \nYour talking about a nation that is going through 100 years of managed decline. We are pretty used to not having everything go our way. When was the last time Britain said a peep about our ancestral land of Normandy?", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\n\"Do you have a flag?\"", ">\n\nI’m sure she is saying this just as a dog-whistle and to make trouble with the EU. It’s probably why she was given the job, because she’s well qualified.", ">\n\n\"We stole them fair and square\".", ">\n\nDragon hoarding gold says all the gold belongs to dragon", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nDon’t see Italy returning all the Obelisks the Romans looted to Egypt.", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nIf they were taken to be protected from the occupying Turks why haven’t they been returned now the Greece won its independence and the Ottomans don’t exist anymore", ">\n\nBecause there is no requirement for them to be returned. \nIt's a 'nice' thing to say you could put them back. But it's not required morally or ethically in this specific situation. \nAll you can do is appeal to nationism from this point on wards. If the British Government sold the London Bridge to some dude in the US, then that is that done and dusted. \nA British government 300 years in the future has no RIGHT to demand London Bridge back despite it's historical significance to us. \nWe could ask, but that's it. \nThis entire discussion hinges on supporting Greek Nationalism and putting down British Nationalism.", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nMost of the heritage wasn't taken. It was ground down and used as building materials. \nIt's revisionist to go \"the reason so much is missing is because of theft\"", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works." ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?", ">\n\nOne day Egyptian Museum directors will steal the gates to Buckingham Palace to put them on display, while the Greeks acquire Big Ben and put it on display in the middle of some plaza.", ">\n\nYeah, if we sell them to Egypt and Greece then what recourse do we have. Wait 500 years and then claim they were stolen because.... \nYour talking about a nation that is going through 100 years of managed decline. We are pretty used to not having everything go our way. When was the last time Britain said a peep about our ancestral land of Normandy?", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\n\"Do you have a flag?\"", ">\n\nI’m sure she is saying this just as a dog-whistle and to make trouble with the EU. It’s probably why she was given the job, because she’s well qualified.", ">\n\n\"We stole them fair and square\".", ">\n\nDragon hoarding gold says all the gold belongs to dragon", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nDon’t see Italy returning all the Obelisks the Romans looted to Egypt.", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nIf they were taken to be protected from the occupying Turks why haven’t they been returned now the Greece won its independence and the Ottomans don’t exist anymore", ">\n\nBecause there is no requirement for them to be returned. \nIt's a 'nice' thing to say you could put them back. But it's not required morally or ethically in this specific situation. \nAll you can do is appeal to nationism from this point on wards. If the British Government sold the London Bridge to some dude in the US, then that is that done and dusted. \nA British government 300 years in the future has no RIGHT to demand London Bridge back despite it's historical significance to us. \nWe could ask, but that's it. \nThis entire discussion hinges on supporting Greek Nationalism and putting down British Nationalism.", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nMost of the heritage wasn't taken. It was ground down and used as building materials. \nIt's revisionist to go \"the reason so much is missing is because of theft\"", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time." ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?", ">\n\nOne day Egyptian Museum directors will steal the gates to Buckingham Palace to put them on display, while the Greeks acquire Big Ben and put it on display in the middle of some plaza.", ">\n\nYeah, if we sell them to Egypt and Greece then what recourse do we have. Wait 500 years and then claim they were stolen because.... \nYour talking about a nation that is going through 100 years of managed decline. We are pretty used to not having everything go our way. When was the last time Britain said a peep about our ancestral land of Normandy?", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\n\"Do you have a flag?\"", ">\n\nI’m sure she is saying this just as a dog-whistle and to make trouble with the EU. It’s probably why she was given the job, because she’s well qualified.", ">\n\n\"We stole them fair and square\".", ">\n\nDragon hoarding gold says all the gold belongs to dragon", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nDon’t see Italy returning all the Obelisks the Romans looted to Egypt.", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nIf they were taken to be protected from the occupying Turks why haven’t they been returned now the Greece won its independence and the Ottomans don’t exist anymore", ">\n\nBecause there is no requirement for them to be returned. \nIt's a 'nice' thing to say you could put them back. But it's not required morally or ethically in this specific situation. \nAll you can do is appeal to nationism from this point on wards. If the British Government sold the London Bridge to some dude in the US, then that is that done and dusted. \nA British government 300 years in the future has no RIGHT to demand London Bridge back despite it's historical significance to us. \nWe could ask, but that's it. \nThis entire discussion hinges on supporting Greek Nationalism and putting down British Nationalism.", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nMost of the heritage wasn't taken. It was ground down and used as building materials. \nIt's revisionist to go \"the reason so much is missing is because of theft\"", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis." ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?", ">\n\nOne day Egyptian Museum directors will steal the gates to Buckingham Palace to put them on display, while the Greeks acquire Big Ben and put it on display in the middle of some plaza.", ">\n\nYeah, if we sell them to Egypt and Greece then what recourse do we have. Wait 500 years and then claim they were stolen because.... \nYour talking about a nation that is going through 100 years of managed decline. We are pretty used to not having everything go our way. When was the last time Britain said a peep about our ancestral land of Normandy?", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\n\"Do you have a flag?\"", ">\n\nI’m sure she is saying this just as a dog-whistle and to make trouble with the EU. It’s probably why she was given the job, because she’s well qualified.", ">\n\n\"We stole them fair and square\".", ">\n\nDragon hoarding gold says all the gold belongs to dragon", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nDon’t see Italy returning all the Obelisks the Romans looted to Egypt.", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nIf they were taken to be protected from the occupying Turks why haven’t they been returned now the Greece won its independence and the Ottomans don’t exist anymore", ">\n\nBecause there is no requirement for them to be returned. \nIt's a 'nice' thing to say you could put them back. But it's not required morally or ethically in this specific situation. \nAll you can do is appeal to nationism from this point on wards. If the British Government sold the London Bridge to some dude in the US, then that is that done and dusted. \nA British government 300 years in the future has no RIGHT to demand London Bridge back despite it's historical significance to us. \nWe could ask, but that's it. \nThis entire discussion hinges on supporting Greek Nationalism and putting down British Nationalism.", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nMost of the heritage wasn't taken. It was ground down and used as building materials. \nIt's revisionist to go \"the reason so much is missing is because of theft\"", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever." ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?", ">\n\nOne day Egyptian Museum directors will steal the gates to Buckingham Palace to put them on display, while the Greeks acquire Big Ben and put it on display in the middle of some plaza.", ">\n\nYeah, if we sell them to Egypt and Greece then what recourse do we have. Wait 500 years and then claim they were stolen because.... \nYour talking about a nation that is going through 100 years of managed decline. We are pretty used to not having everything go our way. When was the last time Britain said a peep about our ancestral land of Normandy?", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\n\"Do you have a flag?\"", ">\n\nI’m sure she is saying this just as a dog-whistle and to make trouble with the EU. It’s probably why she was given the job, because she’s well qualified.", ">\n\n\"We stole them fair and square\".", ">\n\nDragon hoarding gold says all the gold belongs to dragon", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nDon’t see Italy returning all the Obelisks the Romans looted to Egypt.", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nIf they were taken to be protected from the occupying Turks why haven’t they been returned now the Greece won its independence and the Ottomans don’t exist anymore", ">\n\nBecause there is no requirement for them to be returned. \nIt's a 'nice' thing to say you could put them back. But it's not required morally or ethically in this specific situation. \nAll you can do is appeal to nationism from this point on wards. If the British Government sold the London Bridge to some dude in the US, then that is that done and dusted. \nA British government 300 years in the future has no RIGHT to demand London Bridge back despite it's historical significance to us. \nWe could ask, but that's it. \nThis entire discussion hinges on supporting Greek Nationalism and putting down British Nationalism.", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nMost of the heritage wasn't taken. It was ground down and used as building materials. \nIt's revisionist to go \"the reason so much is missing is because of theft\"", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco" ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?", ">\n\nOne day Egyptian Museum directors will steal the gates to Buckingham Palace to put them on display, while the Greeks acquire Big Ben and put it on display in the middle of some plaza.", ">\n\nYeah, if we sell them to Egypt and Greece then what recourse do we have. Wait 500 years and then claim they were stolen because.... \nYour talking about a nation that is going through 100 years of managed decline. We are pretty used to not having everything go our way. When was the last time Britain said a peep about our ancestral land of Normandy?", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\n\"Do you have a flag?\"", ">\n\nI’m sure she is saying this just as a dog-whistle and to make trouble with the EU. It’s probably why she was given the job, because she’s well qualified.", ">\n\n\"We stole them fair and square\".", ">\n\nDragon hoarding gold says all the gold belongs to dragon", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nDon’t see Italy returning all the Obelisks the Romans looted to Egypt.", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nIf they were taken to be protected from the occupying Turks why haven’t they been returned now the Greece won its independence and the Ottomans don’t exist anymore", ">\n\nBecause there is no requirement for them to be returned. \nIt's a 'nice' thing to say you could put them back. But it's not required morally or ethically in this specific situation. \nAll you can do is appeal to nationism from this point on wards. If the British Government sold the London Bridge to some dude in the US, then that is that done and dusted. \nA British government 300 years in the future has no RIGHT to demand London Bridge back despite it's historical significance to us. \nWe could ask, but that's it. \nThis entire discussion hinges on supporting Greek Nationalism and putting down British Nationalism.", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nMost of the heritage wasn't taken. It was ground down and used as building materials. \nIt's revisionist to go \"the reason so much is missing is because of theft\"", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?" ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?", ">\n\nOne day Egyptian Museum directors will steal the gates to Buckingham Palace to put them on display, while the Greeks acquire Big Ben and put it on display in the middle of some plaza.", ">\n\nYeah, if we sell them to Egypt and Greece then what recourse do we have. Wait 500 years and then claim they were stolen because.... \nYour talking about a nation that is going through 100 years of managed decline. We are pretty used to not having everything go our way. When was the last time Britain said a peep about our ancestral land of Normandy?", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\n\"Do you have a flag?\"", ">\n\nI’m sure she is saying this just as a dog-whistle and to make trouble with the EU. It’s probably why she was given the job, because she’s well qualified.", ">\n\n\"We stole them fair and square\".", ">\n\nDragon hoarding gold says all the gold belongs to dragon", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nDon’t see Italy returning all the Obelisks the Romans looted to Egypt.", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nIf they were taken to be protected from the occupying Turks why haven’t they been returned now the Greece won its independence and the Ottomans don’t exist anymore", ">\n\nBecause there is no requirement for them to be returned. \nIt's a 'nice' thing to say you could put them back. But it's not required morally or ethically in this specific situation. \nAll you can do is appeal to nationism from this point on wards. If the British Government sold the London Bridge to some dude in the US, then that is that done and dusted. \nA British government 300 years in the future has no RIGHT to demand London Bridge back despite it's historical significance to us. \nWe could ask, but that's it. \nThis entire discussion hinges on supporting Greek Nationalism and putting down British Nationalism.", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nMost of the heritage wasn't taken. It was ground down and used as building materials. \nIt's revisionist to go \"the reason so much is missing is because of theft\"", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nWelcome, newcomers, to the debate about the Elgin Marbles. Which has been raging for many decades and nobody here has raised any new points, this issue has BEEN AROUND." ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?", ">\n\nOne day Egyptian Museum directors will steal the gates to Buckingham Palace to put them on display, while the Greeks acquire Big Ben and put it on display in the middle of some plaza.", ">\n\nYeah, if we sell them to Egypt and Greece then what recourse do we have. Wait 500 years and then claim they were stolen because.... \nYour talking about a nation that is going through 100 years of managed decline. We are pretty used to not having everything go our way. When was the last time Britain said a peep about our ancestral land of Normandy?", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\n\"Do you have a flag?\"", ">\n\nI’m sure she is saying this just as a dog-whistle and to make trouble with the EU. It’s probably why she was given the job, because she’s well qualified.", ">\n\n\"We stole them fair and square\".", ">\n\nDragon hoarding gold says all the gold belongs to dragon", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nDon’t see Italy returning all the Obelisks the Romans looted to Egypt.", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nIf they were taken to be protected from the occupying Turks why haven’t they been returned now the Greece won its independence and the Ottomans don’t exist anymore", ">\n\nBecause there is no requirement for them to be returned. \nIt's a 'nice' thing to say you could put them back. But it's not required morally or ethically in this specific situation. \nAll you can do is appeal to nationism from this point on wards. If the British Government sold the London Bridge to some dude in the US, then that is that done and dusted. \nA British government 300 years in the future has no RIGHT to demand London Bridge back despite it's historical significance to us. \nWe could ask, but that's it. \nThis entire discussion hinges on supporting Greek Nationalism and putting down British Nationalism.", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nMost of the heritage wasn't taken. It was ground down and used as building materials. \nIt's revisionist to go \"the reason so much is missing is because of theft\"", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nWelcome, newcomers, to the debate about the Elgin Marbles. Which has been raging for many decades and nobody here has raised any new points, this issue has BEEN AROUND.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is…" ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?", ">\n\nOne day Egyptian Museum directors will steal the gates to Buckingham Palace to put them on display, while the Greeks acquire Big Ben and put it on display in the middle of some plaza.", ">\n\nYeah, if we sell them to Egypt and Greece then what recourse do we have. Wait 500 years and then claim they were stolen because.... \nYour talking about a nation that is going through 100 years of managed decline. We are pretty used to not having everything go our way. When was the last time Britain said a peep about our ancestral land of Normandy?", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\n\"Do you have a flag?\"", ">\n\nI’m sure she is saying this just as a dog-whistle and to make trouble with the EU. It’s probably why she was given the job, because she’s well qualified.", ">\n\n\"We stole them fair and square\".", ">\n\nDragon hoarding gold says all the gold belongs to dragon", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nDon’t see Italy returning all the Obelisks the Romans looted to Egypt.", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nIf they were taken to be protected from the occupying Turks why haven’t they been returned now the Greece won its independence and the Ottomans don’t exist anymore", ">\n\nBecause there is no requirement for them to be returned. \nIt's a 'nice' thing to say you could put them back. But it's not required morally or ethically in this specific situation. \nAll you can do is appeal to nationism from this point on wards. If the British Government sold the London Bridge to some dude in the US, then that is that done and dusted. \nA British government 300 years in the future has no RIGHT to demand London Bridge back despite it's historical significance to us. \nWe could ask, but that's it. \nThis entire discussion hinges on supporting Greek Nationalism and putting down British Nationalism.", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nMost of the heritage wasn't taken. It was ground down and used as building materials. \nIt's revisionist to go \"the reason so much is missing is because of theft\"", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nWelcome, newcomers, to the debate about the Elgin Marbles. Which has been raging for many decades and nobody here has raised any new points, this issue has BEEN AROUND.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is…", ">\n\nFFs, put them all in the same fecking place, then creates some high quality replicas to fill the space." ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?", ">\n\nOne day Egyptian Museum directors will steal the gates to Buckingham Palace to put them on display, while the Greeks acquire Big Ben and put it on display in the middle of some plaza.", ">\n\nYeah, if we sell them to Egypt and Greece then what recourse do we have. Wait 500 years and then claim they were stolen because.... \nYour talking about a nation that is going through 100 years of managed decline. We are pretty used to not having everything go our way. When was the last time Britain said a peep about our ancestral land of Normandy?", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\n\"Do you have a flag?\"", ">\n\nI’m sure she is saying this just as a dog-whistle and to make trouble with the EU. It’s probably why she was given the job, because she’s well qualified.", ">\n\n\"We stole them fair and square\".", ">\n\nDragon hoarding gold says all the gold belongs to dragon", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nDon’t see Italy returning all the Obelisks the Romans looted to Egypt.", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nIf they were taken to be protected from the occupying Turks why haven’t they been returned now the Greece won its independence and the Ottomans don’t exist anymore", ">\n\nBecause there is no requirement for them to be returned. \nIt's a 'nice' thing to say you could put them back. But it's not required morally or ethically in this specific situation. \nAll you can do is appeal to nationism from this point on wards. If the British Government sold the London Bridge to some dude in the US, then that is that done and dusted. \nA British government 300 years in the future has no RIGHT to demand London Bridge back despite it's historical significance to us. \nWe could ask, but that's it. \nThis entire discussion hinges on supporting Greek Nationalism and putting down British Nationalism.", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nMost of the heritage wasn't taken. It was ground down and used as building materials. \nIt's revisionist to go \"the reason so much is missing is because of theft\"", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nWelcome, newcomers, to the debate about the Elgin Marbles. Which has been raging for many decades and nobody here has raised any new points, this issue has BEEN AROUND.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is…", ">\n\nFFs, put them all in the same fecking place, then creates some high quality replicas to fill the space.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism." ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?", ">\n\nOne day Egyptian Museum directors will steal the gates to Buckingham Palace to put them on display, while the Greeks acquire Big Ben and put it on display in the middle of some plaza.", ">\n\nYeah, if we sell them to Egypt and Greece then what recourse do we have. Wait 500 years and then claim they were stolen because.... \nYour talking about a nation that is going through 100 years of managed decline. We are pretty used to not having everything go our way. When was the last time Britain said a peep about our ancestral land of Normandy?", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\n\"Do you have a flag?\"", ">\n\nI’m sure she is saying this just as a dog-whistle and to make trouble with the EU. It’s probably why she was given the job, because she’s well qualified.", ">\n\n\"We stole them fair and square\".", ">\n\nDragon hoarding gold says all the gold belongs to dragon", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nDon’t see Italy returning all the Obelisks the Romans looted to Egypt.", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nIf they were taken to be protected from the occupying Turks why haven’t they been returned now the Greece won its independence and the Ottomans don’t exist anymore", ">\n\nBecause there is no requirement for them to be returned. \nIt's a 'nice' thing to say you could put them back. But it's not required morally or ethically in this specific situation. \nAll you can do is appeal to nationism from this point on wards. If the British Government sold the London Bridge to some dude in the US, then that is that done and dusted. \nA British government 300 years in the future has no RIGHT to demand London Bridge back despite it's historical significance to us. \nWe could ask, but that's it. \nThis entire discussion hinges on supporting Greek Nationalism and putting down British Nationalism.", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nMost of the heritage wasn't taken. It was ground down and used as building materials. \nIt's revisionist to go \"the reason so much is missing is because of theft\"", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nWelcome, newcomers, to the debate about the Elgin Marbles. Which has been raging for many decades and nobody here has raised any new points, this issue has BEEN AROUND.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is…", ">\n\nFFs, put them all in the same fecking place, then creates some high quality replicas to fill the space.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government." ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?", ">\n\nOne day Egyptian Museum directors will steal the gates to Buckingham Palace to put them on display, while the Greeks acquire Big Ben and put it on display in the middle of some plaza.", ">\n\nYeah, if we sell them to Egypt and Greece then what recourse do we have. Wait 500 years and then claim they were stolen because.... \nYour talking about a nation that is going through 100 years of managed decline. We are pretty used to not having everything go our way. When was the last time Britain said a peep about our ancestral land of Normandy?", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\n\"Do you have a flag?\"", ">\n\nI’m sure she is saying this just as a dog-whistle and to make trouble with the EU. It’s probably why she was given the job, because she’s well qualified.", ">\n\n\"We stole them fair and square\".", ">\n\nDragon hoarding gold says all the gold belongs to dragon", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nDon’t see Italy returning all the Obelisks the Romans looted to Egypt.", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nIf they were taken to be protected from the occupying Turks why haven’t they been returned now the Greece won its independence and the Ottomans don’t exist anymore", ">\n\nBecause there is no requirement for them to be returned. \nIt's a 'nice' thing to say you could put them back. But it's not required morally or ethically in this specific situation. \nAll you can do is appeal to nationism from this point on wards. If the British Government sold the London Bridge to some dude in the US, then that is that done and dusted. \nA British government 300 years in the future has no RIGHT to demand London Bridge back despite it's historical significance to us. \nWe could ask, but that's it. \nThis entire discussion hinges on supporting Greek Nationalism and putting down British Nationalism.", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nMost of the heritage wasn't taken. It was ground down and used as building materials. \nIt's revisionist to go \"the reason so much is missing is because of theft\"", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nWelcome, newcomers, to the debate about the Elgin Marbles. Which has been raging for many decades and nobody here has raised any new points, this issue has BEEN AROUND.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is…", ">\n\nFFs, put them all in the same fecking place, then creates some high quality replicas to fill the space.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists." ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?", ">\n\nOne day Egyptian Museum directors will steal the gates to Buckingham Palace to put them on display, while the Greeks acquire Big Ben and put it on display in the middle of some plaza.", ">\n\nYeah, if we sell them to Egypt and Greece then what recourse do we have. Wait 500 years and then claim they were stolen because.... \nYour talking about a nation that is going through 100 years of managed decline. We are pretty used to not having everything go our way. When was the last time Britain said a peep about our ancestral land of Normandy?", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\n\"Do you have a flag?\"", ">\n\nI’m sure she is saying this just as a dog-whistle and to make trouble with the EU. It’s probably why she was given the job, because she’s well qualified.", ">\n\n\"We stole them fair and square\".", ">\n\nDragon hoarding gold says all the gold belongs to dragon", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nDon’t see Italy returning all the Obelisks the Romans looted to Egypt.", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nIf they were taken to be protected from the occupying Turks why haven’t they been returned now the Greece won its independence and the Ottomans don’t exist anymore", ">\n\nBecause there is no requirement for them to be returned. \nIt's a 'nice' thing to say you could put them back. But it's not required morally or ethically in this specific situation. \nAll you can do is appeal to nationism from this point on wards. If the British Government sold the London Bridge to some dude in the US, then that is that done and dusted. \nA British government 300 years in the future has no RIGHT to demand London Bridge back despite it's historical significance to us. \nWe could ask, but that's it. \nThis entire discussion hinges on supporting Greek Nationalism and putting down British Nationalism.", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nMost of the heritage wasn't taken. It was ground down and used as building materials. \nIt's revisionist to go \"the reason so much is missing is because of theft\"", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nWelcome, newcomers, to the debate about the Elgin Marbles. Which has been raging for many decades and nobody here has raised any new points, this issue has BEEN AROUND.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is…", ">\n\nFFs, put them all in the same fecking place, then creates some high quality replicas to fill the space.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation." ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?", ">\n\nOne day Egyptian Museum directors will steal the gates to Buckingham Palace to put them on display, while the Greeks acquire Big Ben and put it on display in the middle of some plaza.", ">\n\nYeah, if we sell them to Egypt and Greece then what recourse do we have. Wait 500 years and then claim they were stolen because.... \nYour talking about a nation that is going through 100 years of managed decline. We are pretty used to not having everything go our way. When was the last time Britain said a peep about our ancestral land of Normandy?", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\n\"Do you have a flag?\"", ">\n\nI’m sure she is saying this just as a dog-whistle and to make trouble with the EU. It’s probably why she was given the job, because she’s well qualified.", ">\n\n\"We stole them fair and square\".", ">\n\nDragon hoarding gold says all the gold belongs to dragon", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nDon’t see Italy returning all the Obelisks the Romans looted to Egypt.", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nIf they were taken to be protected from the occupying Turks why haven’t they been returned now the Greece won its independence and the Ottomans don’t exist anymore", ">\n\nBecause there is no requirement for them to be returned. \nIt's a 'nice' thing to say you could put them back. But it's not required morally or ethically in this specific situation. \nAll you can do is appeal to nationism from this point on wards. If the British Government sold the London Bridge to some dude in the US, then that is that done and dusted. \nA British government 300 years in the future has no RIGHT to demand London Bridge back despite it's historical significance to us. \nWe could ask, but that's it. \nThis entire discussion hinges on supporting Greek Nationalism and putting down British Nationalism.", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nMost of the heritage wasn't taken. It was ground down and used as building materials. \nIt's revisionist to go \"the reason so much is missing is because of theft\"", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nWelcome, newcomers, to the debate about the Elgin Marbles. Which has been raging for many decades and nobody here has raised any new points, this issue has BEEN AROUND.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is…", ">\n\nFFs, put them all in the same fecking place, then creates some high quality replicas to fill the space.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit." ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?", ">\n\nOne day Egyptian Museum directors will steal the gates to Buckingham Palace to put them on display, while the Greeks acquire Big Ben and put it on display in the middle of some plaza.", ">\n\nYeah, if we sell them to Egypt and Greece then what recourse do we have. Wait 500 years and then claim they were stolen because.... \nYour talking about a nation that is going through 100 years of managed decline. We are pretty used to not having everything go our way. When was the last time Britain said a peep about our ancestral land of Normandy?", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\n\"Do you have a flag?\"", ">\n\nI’m sure she is saying this just as a dog-whistle and to make trouble with the EU. It’s probably why she was given the job, because she’s well qualified.", ">\n\n\"We stole them fair and square\".", ">\n\nDragon hoarding gold says all the gold belongs to dragon", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nDon’t see Italy returning all the Obelisks the Romans looted to Egypt.", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nIf they were taken to be protected from the occupying Turks why haven’t they been returned now the Greece won its independence and the Ottomans don’t exist anymore", ">\n\nBecause there is no requirement for them to be returned. \nIt's a 'nice' thing to say you could put them back. But it's not required morally or ethically in this specific situation. \nAll you can do is appeal to nationism from this point on wards. If the British Government sold the London Bridge to some dude in the US, then that is that done and dusted. \nA British government 300 years in the future has no RIGHT to demand London Bridge back despite it's historical significance to us. \nWe could ask, but that's it. \nThis entire discussion hinges on supporting Greek Nationalism and putting down British Nationalism.", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nMost of the heritage wasn't taken. It was ground down and used as building materials. \nIt's revisionist to go \"the reason so much is missing is because of theft\"", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nWelcome, newcomers, to the debate about the Elgin Marbles. Which has been raging for many decades and nobody here has raised any new points, this issue has BEEN AROUND.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is…", ">\n\nFFs, put them all in the same fecking place, then creates some high quality replicas to fill the space.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!" ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?", ">\n\nOne day Egyptian Museum directors will steal the gates to Buckingham Palace to put them on display, while the Greeks acquire Big Ben and put it on display in the middle of some plaza.", ">\n\nYeah, if we sell them to Egypt and Greece then what recourse do we have. Wait 500 years and then claim they were stolen because.... \nYour talking about a nation that is going through 100 years of managed decline. We are pretty used to not having everything go our way. When was the last time Britain said a peep about our ancestral land of Normandy?", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\n\"Do you have a flag?\"", ">\n\nI’m sure she is saying this just as a dog-whistle and to make trouble with the EU. It’s probably why she was given the job, because she’s well qualified.", ">\n\n\"We stole them fair and square\".", ">\n\nDragon hoarding gold says all the gold belongs to dragon", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nDon’t see Italy returning all the Obelisks the Romans looted to Egypt.", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nIf they were taken to be protected from the occupying Turks why haven’t they been returned now the Greece won its independence and the Ottomans don’t exist anymore", ">\n\nBecause there is no requirement for them to be returned. \nIt's a 'nice' thing to say you could put them back. But it's not required morally or ethically in this specific situation. \nAll you can do is appeal to nationism from this point on wards. If the British Government sold the London Bridge to some dude in the US, then that is that done and dusted. \nA British government 300 years in the future has no RIGHT to demand London Bridge back despite it's historical significance to us. \nWe could ask, but that's it. \nThis entire discussion hinges on supporting Greek Nationalism and putting down British Nationalism.", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nMost of the heritage wasn't taken. It was ground down and used as building materials. \nIt's revisionist to go \"the reason so much is missing is because of theft\"", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nWelcome, newcomers, to the debate about the Elgin Marbles. Which has been raging for many decades and nobody here has raised any new points, this issue has BEEN AROUND.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is…", ">\n\nFFs, put them all in the same fecking place, then creates some high quality replicas to fill the space.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today." ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?", ">\n\nOne day Egyptian Museum directors will steal the gates to Buckingham Palace to put them on display, while the Greeks acquire Big Ben and put it on display in the middle of some plaza.", ">\n\nYeah, if we sell them to Egypt and Greece then what recourse do we have. Wait 500 years and then claim they were stolen because.... \nYour talking about a nation that is going through 100 years of managed decline. We are pretty used to not having everything go our way. When was the last time Britain said a peep about our ancestral land of Normandy?", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\n\"Do you have a flag?\"", ">\n\nI’m sure she is saying this just as a dog-whistle and to make trouble with the EU. It’s probably why she was given the job, because she’s well qualified.", ">\n\n\"We stole them fair and square\".", ">\n\nDragon hoarding gold says all the gold belongs to dragon", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nDon’t see Italy returning all the Obelisks the Romans looted to Egypt.", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nIf they were taken to be protected from the occupying Turks why haven’t they been returned now the Greece won its independence and the Ottomans don’t exist anymore", ">\n\nBecause there is no requirement for them to be returned. \nIt's a 'nice' thing to say you could put them back. But it's not required morally or ethically in this specific situation. \nAll you can do is appeal to nationism from this point on wards. If the British Government sold the London Bridge to some dude in the US, then that is that done and dusted. \nA British government 300 years in the future has no RIGHT to demand London Bridge back despite it's historical significance to us. \nWe could ask, but that's it. \nThis entire discussion hinges on supporting Greek Nationalism and putting down British Nationalism.", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nMost of the heritage wasn't taken. It was ground down and used as building materials. \nIt's revisionist to go \"the reason so much is missing is because of theft\"", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nWelcome, newcomers, to the debate about the Elgin Marbles. Which has been raging for many decades and nobody here has raised any new points, this issue has BEEN AROUND.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is…", ">\n\nFFs, put them all in the same fecking place, then creates some high quality replicas to fill the space.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nGreece wasn't a nation prior to Ottoman rule. \nThis is exactly the revisionist bullshit that stops people being able to have productive discussions. \nGreece was a collection of states that shared a language. There was no ruler of greece. Artefacts from one state were not shared with artefacts from another state despite in modern times us viewing them as one thing." ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?", ">\n\nOne day Egyptian Museum directors will steal the gates to Buckingham Palace to put them on display, while the Greeks acquire Big Ben and put it on display in the middle of some plaza.", ">\n\nYeah, if we sell them to Egypt and Greece then what recourse do we have. Wait 500 years and then claim they were stolen because.... \nYour talking about a nation that is going through 100 years of managed decline. We are pretty used to not having everything go our way. When was the last time Britain said a peep about our ancestral land of Normandy?", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\n\"Do you have a flag?\"", ">\n\nI’m sure she is saying this just as a dog-whistle and to make trouble with the EU. It’s probably why she was given the job, because she’s well qualified.", ">\n\n\"We stole them fair and square\".", ">\n\nDragon hoarding gold says all the gold belongs to dragon", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nDon’t see Italy returning all the Obelisks the Romans looted to Egypt.", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nIf they were taken to be protected from the occupying Turks why haven’t they been returned now the Greece won its independence and the Ottomans don’t exist anymore", ">\n\nBecause there is no requirement for them to be returned. \nIt's a 'nice' thing to say you could put them back. But it's not required morally or ethically in this specific situation. \nAll you can do is appeal to nationism from this point on wards. If the British Government sold the London Bridge to some dude in the US, then that is that done and dusted. \nA British government 300 years in the future has no RIGHT to demand London Bridge back despite it's historical significance to us. \nWe could ask, but that's it. \nThis entire discussion hinges on supporting Greek Nationalism and putting down British Nationalism.", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nMost of the heritage wasn't taken. It was ground down and used as building materials. \nIt's revisionist to go \"the reason so much is missing is because of theft\"", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nWelcome, newcomers, to the debate about the Elgin Marbles. Which has been raging for many decades and nobody here has raised any new points, this issue has BEEN AROUND.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is…", ">\n\nFFs, put them all in the same fecking place, then creates some high quality replicas to fill the space.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nGreece wasn't a nation prior to Ottoman rule. \nThis is exactly the revisionist bullshit that stops people being able to have productive discussions. \nGreece was a collection of states that shared a language. There was no ruler of greece. Artefacts from one state were not shared with artefacts from another state despite in modern times us viewing them as one thing.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime" ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?", ">\n\nOne day Egyptian Museum directors will steal the gates to Buckingham Palace to put them on display, while the Greeks acquire Big Ben and put it on display in the middle of some plaza.", ">\n\nYeah, if we sell them to Egypt and Greece then what recourse do we have. Wait 500 years and then claim they were stolen because.... \nYour talking about a nation that is going through 100 years of managed decline. We are pretty used to not having everything go our way. When was the last time Britain said a peep about our ancestral land of Normandy?", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\n\"Do you have a flag?\"", ">\n\nI’m sure she is saying this just as a dog-whistle and to make trouble with the EU. It’s probably why she was given the job, because she’s well qualified.", ">\n\n\"We stole them fair and square\".", ">\n\nDragon hoarding gold says all the gold belongs to dragon", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nDon’t see Italy returning all the Obelisks the Romans looted to Egypt.", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nIf they were taken to be protected from the occupying Turks why haven’t they been returned now the Greece won its independence and the Ottomans don’t exist anymore", ">\n\nBecause there is no requirement for them to be returned. \nIt's a 'nice' thing to say you could put them back. But it's not required morally or ethically in this specific situation. \nAll you can do is appeal to nationism from this point on wards. If the British Government sold the London Bridge to some dude in the US, then that is that done and dusted. \nA British government 300 years in the future has no RIGHT to demand London Bridge back despite it's historical significance to us. \nWe could ask, but that's it. \nThis entire discussion hinges on supporting Greek Nationalism and putting down British Nationalism.", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nMost of the heritage wasn't taken. It was ground down and used as building materials. \nIt's revisionist to go \"the reason so much is missing is because of theft\"", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nWelcome, newcomers, to the debate about the Elgin Marbles. Which has been raging for many decades and nobody here has raised any new points, this issue has BEEN AROUND.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is…", ">\n\nFFs, put them all in the same fecking place, then creates some high quality replicas to fill the space.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nGreece wasn't a nation prior to Ottoman rule. \nThis is exactly the revisionist bullshit that stops people being able to have productive discussions. \nGreece was a collection of states that shared a language. There was no ruler of greece. Artefacts from one state were not shared with artefacts from another state despite in modern times us viewing them as one thing.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls" ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?", ">\n\nOne day Egyptian Museum directors will steal the gates to Buckingham Palace to put them on display, while the Greeks acquire Big Ben and put it on display in the middle of some plaza.", ">\n\nYeah, if we sell them to Egypt and Greece then what recourse do we have. Wait 500 years and then claim they were stolen because.... \nYour talking about a nation that is going through 100 years of managed decline. We are pretty used to not having everything go our way. When was the last time Britain said a peep about our ancestral land of Normandy?", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\n\"Do you have a flag?\"", ">\n\nI’m sure she is saying this just as a dog-whistle and to make trouble with the EU. It’s probably why she was given the job, because she’s well qualified.", ">\n\n\"We stole them fair and square\".", ">\n\nDragon hoarding gold says all the gold belongs to dragon", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nDon’t see Italy returning all the Obelisks the Romans looted to Egypt.", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nIf they were taken to be protected from the occupying Turks why haven’t they been returned now the Greece won its independence and the Ottomans don’t exist anymore", ">\n\nBecause there is no requirement for them to be returned. \nIt's a 'nice' thing to say you could put them back. But it's not required morally or ethically in this specific situation. \nAll you can do is appeal to nationism from this point on wards. If the British Government sold the London Bridge to some dude in the US, then that is that done and dusted. \nA British government 300 years in the future has no RIGHT to demand London Bridge back despite it's historical significance to us. \nWe could ask, but that's it. \nThis entire discussion hinges on supporting Greek Nationalism and putting down British Nationalism.", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nMost of the heritage wasn't taken. It was ground down and used as building materials. \nIt's revisionist to go \"the reason so much is missing is because of theft\"", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nWelcome, newcomers, to the debate about the Elgin Marbles. Which has been raging for many decades and nobody here has raised any new points, this issue has BEEN AROUND.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is…", ">\n\nFFs, put them all in the same fecking place, then creates some high quality replicas to fill the space.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nGreece wasn't a nation prior to Ottoman rule. \nThis is exactly the revisionist bullshit that stops people being able to have productive discussions. \nGreece was a collection of states that shared a language. There was no ruler of greece. Artefacts from one state were not shared with artefacts from another state despite in modern times us viewing them as one thing.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?" ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?", ">\n\nOne day Egyptian Museum directors will steal the gates to Buckingham Palace to put them on display, while the Greeks acquire Big Ben and put it on display in the middle of some plaza.", ">\n\nYeah, if we sell them to Egypt and Greece then what recourse do we have. Wait 500 years and then claim they were stolen because.... \nYour talking about a nation that is going through 100 years of managed decline. We are pretty used to not having everything go our way. When was the last time Britain said a peep about our ancestral land of Normandy?", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\n\"Do you have a flag?\"", ">\n\nI’m sure she is saying this just as a dog-whistle and to make trouble with the EU. It’s probably why she was given the job, because she’s well qualified.", ">\n\n\"We stole them fair and square\".", ">\n\nDragon hoarding gold says all the gold belongs to dragon", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nDon’t see Italy returning all the Obelisks the Romans looted to Egypt.", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nIf they were taken to be protected from the occupying Turks why haven’t they been returned now the Greece won its independence and the Ottomans don’t exist anymore", ">\n\nBecause there is no requirement for them to be returned. \nIt's a 'nice' thing to say you could put them back. But it's not required morally or ethically in this specific situation. \nAll you can do is appeal to nationism from this point on wards. If the British Government sold the London Bridge to some dude in the US, then that is that done and dusted. \nA British government 300 years in the future has no RIGHT to demand London Bridge back despite it's historical significance to us. \nWe could ask, but that's it. \nThis entire discussion hinges on supporting Greek Nationalism and putting down British Nationalism.", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nMost of the heritage wasn't taken. It was ground down and used as building materials. \nIt's revisionist to go \"the reason so much is missing is because of theft\"", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nWelcome, newcomers, to the debate about the Elgin Marbles. Which has been raging for many decades and nobody here has raised any new points, this issue has BEEN AROUND.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is…", ">\n\nFFs, put them all in the same fecking place, then creates some high quality replicas to fill the space.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nGreece wasn't a nation prior to Ottoman rule. \nThis is exactly the revisionist bullshit that stops people being able to have productive discussions. \nGreece was a collection of states that shared a language. There was no ruler of greece. Artefacts from one state were not shared with artefacts from another state despite in modern times us viewing them as one thing.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point." ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?", ">\n\nOne day Egyptian Museum directors will steal the gates to Buckingham Palace to put them on display, while the Greeks acquire Big Ben and put it on display in the middle of some plaza.", ">\n\nYeah, if we sell them to Egypt and Greece then what recourse do we have. Wait 500 years and then claim they were stolen because.... \nYour talking about a nation that is going through 100 years of managed decline. We are pretty used to not having everything go our way. When was the last time Britain said a peep about our ancestral land of Normandy?", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\n\"Do you have a flag?\"", ">\n\nI’m sure she is saying this just as a dog-whistle and to make trouble with the EU. It’s probably why she was given the job, because she’s well qualified.", ">\n\n\"We stole them fair and square\".", ">\n\nDragon hoarding gold says all the gold belongs to dragon", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nDon’t see Italy returning all the Obelisks the Romans looted to Egypt.", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nIf they were taken to be protected from the occupying Turks why haven’t they been returned now the Greece won its independence and the Ottomans don’t exist anymore", ">\n\nBecause there is no requirement for them to be returned. \nIt's a 'nice' thing to say you could put them back. But it's not required morally or ethically in this specific situation. \nAll you can do is appeal to nationism from this point on wards. If the British Government sold the London Bridge to some dude in the US, then that is that done and dusted. \nA British government 300 years in the future has no RIGHT to demand London Bridge back despite it's historical significance to us. \nWe could ask, but that's it. \nThis entire discussion hinges on supporting Greek Nationalism and putting down British Nationalism.", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nMost of the heritage wasn't taken. It was ground down and used as building materials. \nIt's revisionist to go \"the reason so much is missing is because of theft\"", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nWelcome, newcomers, to the debate about the Elgin Marbles. Which has been raging for many decades and nobody here has raised any new points, this issue has BEEN AROUND.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is…", ">\n\nFFs, put them all in the same fecking place, then creates some high quality replicas to fill the space.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nGreece wasn't a nation prior to Ottoman rule. \nThis is exactly the revisionist bullshit that stops people being able to have productive discussions. \nGreece was a collection of states that shared a language. There was no ruler of greece. Artefacts from one state were not shared with artefacts from another state despite in modern times us viewing them as one thing.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?" ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?", ">\n\nOne day Egyptian Museum directors will steal the gates to Buckingham Palace to put them on display, while the Greeks acquire Big Ben and put it on display in the middle of some plaza.", ">\n\nYeah, if we sell them to Egypt and Greece then what recourse do we have. Wait 500 years and then claim they were stolen because.... \nYour talking about a nation that is going through 100 years of managed decline. We are pretty used to not having everything go our way. When was the last time Britain said a peep about our ancestral land of Normandy?", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\n\"Do you have a flag?\"", ">\n\nI’m sure she is saying this just as a dog-whistle and to make trouble with the EU. It’s probably why she was given the job, because she’s well qualified.", ">\n\n\"We stole them fair and square\".", ">\n\nDragon hoarding gold says all the gold belongs to dragon", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nDon’t see Italy returning all the Obelisks the Romans looted to Egypt.", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nIf they were taken to be protected from the occupying Turks why haven’t they been returned now the Greece won its independence and the Ottomans don’t exist anymore", ">\n\nBecause there is no requirement for them to be returned. \nIt's a 'nice' thing to say you could put them back. But it's not required morally or ethically in this specific situation. \nAll you can do is appeal to nationism from this point on wards. If the British Government sold the London Bridge to some dude in the US, then that is that done and dusted. \nA British government 300 years in the future has no RIGHT to demand London Bridge back despite it's historical significance to us. \nWe could ask, but that's it. \nThis entire discussion hinges on supporting Greek Nationalism and putting down British Nationalism.", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nMost of the heritage wasn't taken. It was ground down and used as building materials. \nIt's revisionist to go \"the reason so much is missing is because of theft\"", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nWelcome, newcomers, to the debate about the Elgin Marbles. Which has been raging for many decades and nobody here has raised any new points, this issue has BEEN AROUND.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is…", ">\n\nFFs, put them all in the same fecking place, then creates some high quality replicas to fill the space.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nGreece wasn't a nation prior to Ottoman rule. \nThis is exactly the revisionist bullshit that stops people being able to have productive discussions. \nGreece was a collection of states that shared a language. There was no ruler of greece. Artefacts from one state were not shared with artefacts from another state despite in modern times us viewing them as one thing.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them." ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?", ">\n\nOne day Egyptian Museum directors will steal the gates to Buckingham Palace to put them on display, while the Greeks acquire Big Ben and put it on display in the middle of some plaza.", ">\n\nYeah, if we sell them to Egypt and Greece then what recourse do we have. Wait 500 years and then claim they were stolen because.... \nYour talking about a nation that is going through 100 years of managed decline. We are pretty used to not having everything go our way. When was the last time Britain said a peep about our ancestral land of Normandy?", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\n\"Do you have a flag?\"", ">\n\nI’m sure she is saying this just as a dog-whistle and to make trouble with the EU. It’s probably why she was given the job, because she’s well qualified.", ">\n\n\"We stole them fair and square\".", ">\n\nDragon hoarding gold says all the gold belongs to dragon", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nDon’t see Italy returning all the Obelisks the Romans looted to Egypt.", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nIf they were taken to be protected from the occupying Turks why haven’t they been returned now the Greece won its independence and the Ottomans don’t exist anymore", ">\n\nBecause there is no requirement for them to be returned. \nIt's a 'nice' thing to say you could put them back. But it's not required morally or ethically in this specific situation. \nAll you can do is appeal to nationism from this point on wards. If the British Government sold the London Bridge to some dude in the US, then that is that done and dusted. \nA British government 300 years in the future has no RIGHT to demand London Bridge back despite it's historical significance to us. \nWe could ask, but that's it. \nThis entire discussion hinges on supporting Greek Nationalism and putting down British Nationalism.", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nMost of the heritage wasn't taken. It was ground down and used as building materials. \nIt's revisionist to go \"the reason so much is missing is because of theft\"", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nWelcome, newcomers, to the debate about the Elgin Marbles. Which has been raging for many decades and nobody here has raised any new points, this issue has BEEN AROUND.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is…", ">\n\nFFs, put them all in the same fecking place, then creates some high quality replicas to fill the space.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nGreece wasn't a nation prior to Ottoman rule. \nThis is exactly the revisionist bullshit that stops people being able to have productive discussions. \nGreece was a collection of states that shared a language. There was no ruler of greece. Artefacts from one state were not shared with artefacts from another state despite in modern times us viewing them as one thing.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time." ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?", ">\n\nOne day Egyptian Museum directors will steal the gates to Buckingham Palace to put them on display, while the Greeks acquire Big Ben and put it on display in the middle of some plaza.", ">\n\nYeah, if we sell them to Egypt and Greece then what recourse do we have. Wait 500 years and then claim they were stolen because.... \nYour talking about a nation that is going through 100 years of managed decline. We are pretty used to not having everything go our way. When was the last time Britain said a peep about our ancestral land of Normandy?", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\n\"Do you have a flag?\"", ">\n\nI’m sure she is saying this just as a dog-whistle and to make trouble with the EU. It’s probably why she was given the job, because she’s well qualified.", ">\n\n\"We stole them fair and square\".", ">\n\nDragon hoarding gold says all the gold belongs to dragon", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nDon’t see Italy returning all the Obelisks the Romans looted to Egypt.", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nIf they were taken to be protected from the occupying Turks why haven’t they been returned now the Greece won its independence and the Ottomans don’t exist anymore", ">\n\nBecause there is no requirement for them to be returned. \nIt's a 'nice' thing to say you could put them back. But it's not required morally or ethically in this specific situation. \nAll you can do is appeal to nationism from this point on wards. If the British Government sold the London Bridge to some dude in the US, then that is that done and dusted. \nA British government 300 years in the future has no RIGHT to demand London Bridge back despite it's historical significance to us. \nWe could ask, but that's it. \nThis entire discussion hinges on supporting Greek Nationalism and putting down British Nationalism.", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nMost of the heritage wasn't taken. It was ground down and used as building materials. \nIt's revisionist to go \"the reason so much is missing is because of theft\"", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nWelcome, newcomers, to the debate about the Elgin Marbles. Which has been raging for many decades and nobody here has raised any new points, this issue has BEEN AROUND.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is…", ">\n\nFFs, put them all in the same fecking place, then creates some high quality replicas to fill the space.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nGreece wasn't a nation prior to Ottoman rule. \nThis is exactly the revisionist bullshit that stops people being able to have productive discussions. \nGreece was a collection of states that shared a language. There was no ruler of greece. Artefacts from one state were not shared with artefacts from another state despite in modern times us viewing them as one thing.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that." ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?", ">\n\nOne day Egyptian Museum directors will steal the gates to Buckingham Palace to put them on display, while the Greeks acquire Big Ben and put it on display in the middle of some plaza.", ">\n\nYeah, if we sell them to Egypt and Greece then what recourse do we have. Wait 500 years and then claim they were stolen because.... \nYour talking about a nation that is going through 100 years of managed decline. We are pretty used to not having everything go our way. When was the last time Britain said a peep about our ancestral land of Normandy?", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\n\"Do you have a flag?\"", ">\n\nI’m sure she is saying this just as a dog-whistle and to make trouble with the EU. It’s probably why she was given the job, because she’s well qualified.", ">\n\n\"We stole them fair and square\".", ">\n\nDragon hoarding gold says all the gold belongs to dragon", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nDon’t see Italy returning all the Obelisks the Romans looted to Egypt.", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nIf they were taken to be protected from the occupying Turks why haven’t they been returned now the Greece won its independence and the Ottomans don’t exist anymore", ">\n\nBecause there is no requirement for them to be returned. \nIt's a 'nice' thing to say you could put them back. But it's not required morally or ethically in this specific situation. \nAll you can do is appeal to nationism from this point on wards. If the British Government sold the London Bridge to some dude in the US, then that is that done and dusted. \nA British government 300 years in the future has no RIGHT to demand London Bridge back despite it's historical significance to us. \nWe could ask, but that's it. \nThis entire discussion hinges on supporting Greek Nationalism and putting down British Nationalism.", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nMost of the heritage wasn't taken. It was ground down and used as building materials. \nIt's revisionist to go \"the reason so much is missing is because of theft\"", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nWelcome, newcomers, to the debate about the Elgin Marbles. Which has been raging for many decades and nobody here has raised any new points, this issue has BEEN AROUND.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is…", ">\n\nFFs, put them all in the same fecking place, then creates some high quality replicas to fill the space.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nGreece wasn't a nation prior to Ottoman rule. \nThis is exactly the revisionist bullshit that stops people being able to have productive discussions. \nGreece was a collection of states that shared a language. There was no ruler of greece. Artefacts from one state were not shared with artefacts from another state despite in modern times us viewing them as one thing.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThe excuse... if it's just an excuse then why don't you display the rest of the intact Parthenon then. oh wait... it wasn't just an excuse was it. \nThe only reason you exist to be able to feel any attachment is because your nation was saved from being wiped from history. You could have just been a region of Turkey. Consider yourself lucky not unlucky." ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?", ">\n\nOne day Egyptian Museum directors will steal the gates to Buckingham Palace to put them on display, while the Greeks acquire Big Ben and put it on display in the middle of some plaza.", ">\n\nYeah, if we sell them to Egypt and Greece then what recourse do we have. Wait 500 years and then claim they were stolen because.... \nYour talking about a nation that is going through 100 years of managed decline. We are pretty used to not having everything go our way. When was the last time Britain said a peep about our ancestral land of Normandy?", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\n\"Do you have a flag?\"", ">\n\nI’m sure she is saying this just as a dog-whistle and to make trouble with the EU. It’s probably why she was given the job, because she’s well qualified.", ">\n\n\"We stole them fair and square\".", ">\n\nDragon hoarding gold says all the gold belongs to dragon", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nDon’t see Italy returning all the Obelisks the Romans looted to Egypt.", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nIf they were taken to be protected from the occupying Turks why haven’t they been returned now the Greece won its independence and the Ottomans don’t exist anymore", ">\n\nBecause there is no requirement for them to be returned. \nIt's a 'nice' thing to say you could put them back. But it's not required morally or ethically in this specific situation. \nAll you can do is appeal to nationism from this point on wards. If the British Government sold the London Bridge to some dude in the US, then that is that done and dusted. \nA British government 300 years in the future has no RIGHT to demand London Bridge back despite it's historical significance to us. \nWe could ask, but that's it. \nThis entire discussion hinges on supporting Greek Nationalism and putting down British Nationalism.", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nMost of the heritage wasn't taken. It was ground down and used as building materials. \nIt's revisionist to go \"the reason so much is missing is because of theft\"", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nWelcome, newcomers, to the debate about the Elgin Marbles. Which has been raging for many decades and nobody here has raised any new points, this issue has BEEN AROUND.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is…", ">\n\nFFs, put them all in the same fecking place, then creates some high quality replicas to fill the space.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nGreece wasn't a nation prior to Ottoman rule. \nThis is exactly the revisionist bullshit that stops people being able to have productive discussions. \nGreece was a collection of states that shared a language. There was no ruler of greece. Artefacts from one state were not shared with artefacts from another state despite in modern times us viewing them as one thing.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThe excuse... if it's just an excuse then why don't you display the rest of the intact Parthenon then. oh wait... it wasn't just an excuse was it. \nThe only reason you exist to be able to feel any attachment is because your nation was saved from being wiped from history. You could have just been a region of Turkey. Consider yourself lucky not unlucky.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't." ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?", ">\n\nOne day Egyptian Museum directors will steal the gates to Buckingham Palace to put them on display, while the Greeks acquire Big Ben and put it on display in the middle of some plaza.", ">\n\nYeah, if we sell them to Egypt and Greece then what recourse do we have. Wait 500 years and then claim they were stolen because.... \nYour talking about a nation that is going through 100 years of managed decline. We are pretty used to not having everything go our way. When was the last time Britain said a peep about our ancestral land of Normandy?", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\n\"Do you have a flag?\"", ">\n\nI’m sure she is saying this just as a dog-whistle and to make trouble with the EU. It’s probably why she was given the job, because she’s well qualified.", ">\n\n\"We stole them fair and square\".", ">\n\nDragon hoarding gold says all the gold belongs to dragon", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nDon’t see Italy returning all the Obelisks the Romans looted to Egypt.", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nIf they were taken to be protected from the occupying Turks why haven’t they been returned now the Greece won its independence and the Ottomans don’t exist anymore", ">\n\nBecause there is no requirement for them to be returned. \nIt's a 'nice' thing to say you could put them back. But it's not required morally or ethically in this specific situation. \nAll you can do is appeal to nationism from this point on wards. If the British Government sold the London Bridge to some dude in the US, then that is that done and dusted. \nA British government 300 years in the future has no RIGHT to demand London Bridge back despite it's historical significance to us. \nWe could ask, but that's it. \nThis entire discussion hinges on supporting Greek Nationalism and putting down British Nationalism.", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nMost of the heritage wasn't taken. It was ground down and used as building materials. \nIt's revisionist to go \"the reason so much is missing is because of theft\"", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nWelcome, newcomers, to the debate about the Elgin Marbles. Which has been raging for many decades and nobody here has raised any new points, this issue has BEEN AROUND.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is…", ">\n\nFFs, put them all in the same fecking place, then creates some high quality replicas to fill the space.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nGreece wasn't a nation prior to Ottoman rule. \nThis is exactly the revisionist bullshit that stops people being able to have productive discussions. \nGreece was a collection of states that shared a language. There was no ruler of greece. Artefacts from one state were not shared with artefacts from another state despite in modern times us viewing them as one thing.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThe excuse... if it's just an excuse then why don't you display the rest of the intact Parthenon then. oh wait... it wasn't just an excuse was it. \nThe only reason you exist to be able to feel any attachment is because your nation was saved from being wiped from history. You could have just been a region of Turkey. Consider yourself lucky not unlucky.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)" ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?", ">\n\nOne day Egyptian Museum directors will steal the gates to Buckingham Palace to put them on display, while the Greeks acquire Big Ben and put it on display in the middle of some plaza.", ">\n\nYeah, if we sell them to Egypt and Greece then what recourse do we have. Wait 500 years and then claim they were stolen because.... \nYour talking about a nation that is going through 100 years of managed decline. We are pretty used to not having everything go our way. When was the last time Britain said a peep about our ancestral land of Normandy?", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\n\"Do you have a flag?\"", ">\n\nI’m sure she is saying this just as a dog-whistle and to make trouble with the EU. It’s probably why she was given the job, because she’s well qualified.", ">\n\n\"We stole them fair and square\".", ">\n\nDragon hoarding gold says all the gold belongs to dragon", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nDon’t see Italy returning all the Obelisks the Romans looted to Egypt.", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nIf they were taken to be protected from the occupying Turks why haven’t they been returned now the Greece won its independence and the Ottomans don’t exist anymore", ">\n\nBecause there is no requirement for them to be returned. \nIt's a 'nice' thing to say you could put them back. But it's not required morally or ethically in this specific situation. \nAll you can do is appeal to nationism from this point on wards. If the British Government sold the London Bridge to some dude in the US, then that is that done and dusted. \nA British government 300 years in the future has no RIGHT to demand London Bridge back despite it's historical significance to us. \nWe could ask, but that's it. \nThis entire discussion hinges on supporting Greek Nationalism and putting down British Nationalism.", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nMost of the heritage wasn't taken. It was ground down and used as building materials. \nIt's revisionist to go \"the reason so much is missing is because of theft\"", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nWelcome, newcomers, to the debate about the Elgin Marbles. Which has been raging for many decades and nobody here has raised any new points, this issue has BEEN AROUND.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is…", ">\n\nFFs, put them all in the same fecking place, then creates some high quality replicas to fill the space.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nGreece wasn't a nation prior to Ottoman rule. \nThis is exactly the revisionist bullshit that stops people being able to have productive discussions. \nGreece was a collection of states that shared a language. There was no ruler of greece. Artefacts from one state were not shared with artefacts from another state despite in modern times us viewing them as one thing.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThe excuse... if it's just an excuse then why don't you display the rest of the intact Parthenon then. oh wait... it wasn't just an excuse was it. \nThe only reason you exist to be able to feel any attachment is because your nation was saved from being wiped from history. You could have just been a region of Turkey. Consider yourself lucky not unlucky.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nActually I would rather have a museum of history which can display a coherant exhibition even with replicas than random collection of genuine knick-knacks museum happen to own." ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?", ">\n\nOne day Egyptian Museum directors will steal the gates to Buckingham Palace to put them on display, while the Greeks acquire Big Ben and put it on display in the middle of some plaza.", ">\n\nYeah, if we sell them to Egypt and Greece then what recourse do we have. Wait 500 years and then claim they were stolen because.... \nYour talking about a nation that is going through 100 years of managed decline. We are pretty used to not having everything go our way. When was the last time Britain said a peep about our ancestral land of Normandy?", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\n\"Do you have a flag?\"", ">\n\nI’m sure she is saying this just as a dog-whistle and to make trouble with the EU. It’s probably why she was given the job, because she’s well qualified.", ">\n\n\"We stole them fair and square\".", ">\n\nDragon hoarding gold says all the gold belongs to dragon", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nDon’t see Italy returning all the Obelisks the Romans looted to Egypt.", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nIf they were taken to be protected from the occupying Turks why haven’t they been returned now the Greece won its independence and the Ottomans don’t exist anymore", ">\n\nBecause there is no requirement for them to be returned. \nIt's a 'nice' thing to say you could put them back. But it's not required morally or ethically in this specific situation. \nAll you can do is appeal to nationism from this point on wards. If the British Government sold the London Bridge to some dude in the US, then that is that done and dusted. \nA British government 300 years in the future has no RIGHT to demand London Bridge back despite it's historical significance to us. \nWe could ask, but that's it. \nThis entire discussion hinges on supporting Greek Nationalism and putting down British Nationalism.", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nMost of the heritage wasn't taken. It was ground down and used as building materials. \nIt's revisionist to go \"the reason so much is missing is because of theft\"", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nWelcome, newcomers, to the debate about the Elgin Marbles. Which has been raging for many decades and nobody here has raised any new points, this issue has BEEN AROUND.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is…", ">\n\nFFs, put them all in the same fecking place, then creates some high quality replicas to fill the space.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nGreece wasn't a nation prior to Ottoman rule. \nThis is exactly the revisionist bullshit that stops people being able to have productive discussions. \nGreece was a collection of states that shared a language. There was no ruler of greece. Artefacts from one state were not shared with artefacts from another state despite in modern times us viewing them as one thing.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThe excuse... if it's just an excuse then why don't you display the rest of the intact Parthenon then. oh wait... it wasn't just an excuse was it. \nThe only reason you exist to be able to feel any attachment is because your nation was saved from being wiped from history. You could have just been a region of Turkey. Consider yourself lucky not unlucky.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nActually I would rather have a museum of history which can display a coherant exhibition even with replicas than random collection of genuine knick-knacks museum happen to own.", ">\n\n\"We worked long and hard whipping our slaves to build those, give them back!\"" ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?", ">\n\nOne day Egyptian Museum directors will steal the gates to Buckingham Palace to put them on display, while the Greeks acquire Big Ben and put it on display in the middle of some plaza.", ">\n\nYeah, if we sell them to Egypt and Greece then what recourse do we have. Wait 500 years and then claim they were stolen because.... \nYour talking about a nation that is going through 100 years of managed decline. We are pretty used to not having everything go our way. When was the last time Britain said a peep about our ancestral land of Normandy?", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\n\"Do you have a flag?\"", ">\n\nI’m sure she is saying this just as a dog-whistle and to make trouble with the EU. It’s probably why she was given the job, because she’s well qualified.", ">\n\n\"We stole them fair and square\".", ">\n\nDragon hoarding gold says all the gold belongs to dragon", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nDon’t see Italy returning all the Obelisks the Romans looted to Egypt.", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nIf they were taken to be protected from the occupying Turks why haven’t they been returned now the Greece won its independence and the Ottomans don’t exist anymore", ">\n\nBecause there is no requirement for them to be returned. \nIt's a 'nice' thing to say you could put them back. But it's not required morally or ethically in this specific situation. \nAll you can do is appeal to nationism from this point on wards. If the British Government sold the London Bridge to some dude in the US, then that is that done and dusted. \nA British government 300 years in the future has no RIGHT to demand London Bridge back despite it's historical significance to us. \nWe could ask, but that's it. \nThis entire discussion hinges on supporting Greek Nationalism and putting down British Nationalism.", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nMost of the heritage wasn't taken. It was ground down and used as building materials. \nIt's revisionist to go \"the reason so much is missing is because of theft\"", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nWelcome, newcomers, to the debate about the Elgin Marbles. Which has been raging for many decades and nobody here has raised any new points, this issue has BEEN AROUND.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is…", ">\n\nFFs, put them all in the same fecking place, then creates some high quality replicas to fill the space.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nGreece wasn't a nation prior to Ottoman rule. \nThis is exactly the revisionist bullshit that stops people being able to have productive discussions. \nGreece was a collection of states that shared a language. There was no ruler of greece. Artefacts from one state were not shared with artefacts from another state despite in modern times us viewing them as one thing.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThe excuse... if it's just an excuse then why don't you display the rest of the intact Parthenon then. oh wait... it wasn't just an excuse was it. \nThe only reason you exist to be able to feel any attachment is because your nation was saved from being wiped from history. You could have just been a region of Turkey. Consider yourself lucky not unlucky.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nActually I would rather have a museum of history which can display a coherant exhibition even with replicas than random collection of genuine knick-knacks museum happen to own.", ">\n\n\"We worked long and hard whipping our slaves to build those, give them back!\"", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that." ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?", ">\n\nOne day Egyptian Museum directors will steal the gates to Buckingham Palace to put them on display, while the Greeks acquire Big Ben and put it on display in the middle of some plaza.", ">\n\nYeah, if we sell them to Egypt and Greece then what recourse do we have. Wait 500 years and then claim they were stolen because.... \nYour talking about a nation that is going through 100 years of managed decline. We are pretty used to not having everything go our way. When was the last time Britain said a peep about our ancestral land of Normandy?", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\n\"Do you have a flag?\"", ">\n\nI’m sure she is saying this just as a dog-whistle and to make trouble with the EU. It’s probably why she was given the job, because she’s well qualified.", ">\n\n\"We stole them fair and square\".", ">\n\nDragon hoarding gold says all the gold belongs to dragon", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nDon’t see Italy returning all the Obelisks the Romans looted to Egypt.", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nIf they were taken to be protected from the occupying Turks why haven’t they been returned now the Greece won its independence and the Ottomans don’t exist anymore", ">\n\nBecause there is no requirement for them to be returned. \nIt's a 'nice' thing to say you could put them back. But it's not required morally or ethically in this specific situation. \nAll you can do is appeal to nationism from this point on wards. If the British Government sold the London Bridge to some dude in the US, then that is that done and dusted. \nA British government 300 years in the future has no RIGHT to demand London Bridge back despite it's historical significance to us. \nWe could ask, but that's it. \nThis entire discussion hinges on supporting Greek Nationalism and putting down British Nationalism.", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nMost of the heritage wasn't taken. It was ground down and used as building materials. \nIt's revisionist to go \"the reason so much is missing is because of theft\"", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nWelcome, newcomers, to the debate about the Elgin Marbles. Which has been raging for many decades and nobody here has raised any new points, this issue has BEEN AROUND.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is…", ">\n\nFFs, put them all in the same fecking place, then creates some high quality replicas to fill the space.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nGreece wasn't a nation prior to Ottoman rule. \nThis is exactly the revisionist bullshit that stops people being able to have productive discussions. \nGreece was a collection of states that shared a language. There was no ruler of greece. Artefacts from one state were not shared with artefacts from another state despite in modern times us viewing them as one thing.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThe excuse... if it's just an excuse then why don't you display the rest of the intact Parthenon then. oh wait... it wasn't just an excuse was it. \nThe only reason you exist to be able to feel any attachment is because your nation was saved from being wiped from history. You could have just been a region of Turkey. Consider yourself lucky not unlucky.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nActually I would rather have a museum of history which can display a coherant exhibition even with replicas than random collection of genuine knick-knacks museum happen to own.", ">\n\n\"We worked long and hard whipping our slaves to build those, give them back!\"", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"" ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?", ">\n\nOne day Egyptian Museum directors will steal the gates to Buckingham Palace to put them on display, while the Greeks acquire Big Ben and put it on display in the middle of some plaza.", ">\n\nYeah, if we sell them to Egypt and Greece then what recourse do we have. Wait 500 years and then claim they were stolen because.... \nYour talking about a nation that is going through 100 years of managed decline. We are pretty used to not having everything go our way. When was the last time Britain said a peep about our ancestral land of Normandy?", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\n\"Do you have a flag?\"", ">\n\nI’m sure she is saying this just as a dog-whistle and to make trouble with the EU. It’s probably why she was given the job, because she’s well qualified.", ">\n\n\"We stole them fair and square\".", ">\n\nDragon hoarding gold says all the gold belongs to dragon", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nDon’t see Italy returning all the Obelisks the Romans looted to Egypt.", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nIf they were taken to be protected from the occupying Turks why haven’t they been returned now the Greece won its independence and the Ottomans don’t exist anymore", ">\n\nBecause there is no requirement for them to be returned. \nIt's a 'nice' thing to say you could put them back. But it's not required morally or ethically in this specific situation. \nAll you can do is appeal to nationism from this point on wards. If the British Government sold the London Bridge to some dude in the US, then that is that done and dusted. \nA British government 300 years in the future has no RIGHT to demand London Bridge back despite it's historical significance to us. \nWe could ask, but that's it. \nThis entire discussion hinges on supporting Greek Nationalism and putting down British Nationalism.", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nMost of the heritage wasn't taken. It was ground down and used as building materials. \nIt's revisionist to go \"the reason so much is missing is because of theft\"", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nWelcome, newcomers, to the debate about the Elgin Marbles. Which has been raging for many decades and nobody here has raised any new points, this issue has BEEN AROUND.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is…", ">\n\nFFs, put them all in the same fecking place, then creates some high quality replicas to fill the space.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nGreece wasn't a nation prior to Ottoman rule. \nThis is exactly the revisionist bullshit that stops people being able to have productive discussions. \nGreece was a collection of states that shared a language. There was no ruler of greece. Artefacts from one state were not shared with artefacts from another state despite in modern times us viewing them as one thing.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThe excuse... if it's just an excuse then why don't you display the rest of the intact Parthenon then. oh wait... it wasn't just an excuse was it. \nThe only reason you exist to be able to feel any attachment is because your nation was saved from being wiped from history. You could have just been a region of Turkey. Consider yourself lucky not unlucky.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nActually I would rather have a museum of history which can display a coherant exhibition even with replicas than random collection of genuine knick-knacks museum happen to own.", ">\n\n\"We worked long and hard whipping our slaves to build those, give them back!\"", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!" ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?", ">\n\nOne day Egyptian Museum directors will steal the gates to Buckingham Palace to put them on display, while the Greeks acquire Big Ben and put it on display in the middle of some plaza.", ">\n\nYeah, if we sell them to Egypt and Greece then what recourse do we have. Wait 500 years and then claim they were stolen because.... \nYour talking about a nation that is going through 100 years of managed decline. We are pretty used to not having everything go our way. When was the last time Britain said a peep about our ancestral land of Normandy?", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\n\"Do you have a flag?\"", ">\n\nI’m sure she is saying this just as a dog-whistle and to make trouble with the EU. It’s probably why she was given the job, because she’s well qualified.", ">\n\n\"We stole them fair and square\".", ">\n\nDragon hoarding gold says all the gold belongs to dragon", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nDon’t see Italy returning all the Obelisks the Romans looted to Egypt.", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nIf they were taken to be protected from the occupying Turks why haven’t they been returned now the Greece won its independence and the Ottomans don’t exist anymore", ">\n\nBecause there is no requirement for them to be returned. \nIt's a 'nice' thing to say you could put them back. But it's not required morally or ethically in this specific situation. \nAll you can do is appeal to nationism from this point on wards. If the British Government sold the London Bridge to some dude in the US, then that is that done and dusted. \nA British government 300 years in the future has no RIGHT to demand London Bridge back despite it's historical significance to us. \nWe could ask, but that's it. \nThis entire discussion hinges on supporting Greek Nationalism and putting down British Nationalism.", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nMost of the heritage wasn't taken. It was ground down and used as building materials. \nIt's revisionist to go \"the reason so much is missing is because of theft\"", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nWelcome, newcomers, to the debate about the Elgin Marbles. Which has been raging for many decades and nobody here has raised any new points, this issue has BEEN AROUND.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is…", ">\n\nFFs, put them all in the same fecking place, then creates some high quality replicas to fill the space.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nGreece wasn't a nation prior to Ottoman rule. \nThis is exactly the revisionist bullshit that stops people being able to have productive discussions. \nGreece was a collection of states that shared a language. There was no ruler of greece. Artefacts from one state were not shared with artefacts from another state despite in modern times us viewing them as one thing.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThe excuse... if it's just an excuse then why don't you display the rest of the intact Parthenon then. oh wait... it wasn't just an excuse was it. \nThe only reason you exist to be able to feel any attachment is because your nation was saved from being wiped from history. You could have just been a region of Turkey. Consider yourself lucky not unlucky.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nActually I would rather have a museum of history which can display a coherant exhibition even with replicas than random collection of genuine knick-knacks museum happen to own.", ">\n\n\"We worked long and hard whipping our slaves to build those, give them back!\"", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already." ]

[ "Citing the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nCan we have our stuff back?\nNo, we're not done looking at it yet!!", ">\n\n\"British people don't go to the musuem. The museum is full of other people looking at their own stuff\"", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nOwnership isn't based on what is fair, it is based on enforceablility. To be clear: the marbles must go home, that is a moral case.", ">\n\nYou’re right in a way but when dealing with international politics sure no one can force the UK to give them back without doing an act of war… knowing this and saying can’t do anything who cares isn’t exactly a way to get people on your side. Especially now when there’s a big push for reconciliation for the lootings by colonial powers", ">\n\nYou have to separate loot from items purchased with consent. \"Loot and spoilation\" are obligatory parts of museum collection documents, (i.e. you have to return stuff). The problem with the British Museum (and the real nightmare: The Royal Collection) is that they have articles that overide this, which I think is very wrong.\nThen again, the Royal collection is exempt from loads of stuff, as part of the Royal household exemptions (like most employment law....).", ">\n\nBut that’s the thing it was looted (I know Elgin removed them) by the ottomans then sold to the British. For the country that was looted they don’t really give a shot that you paid for it", ">\n\nHere's the thing, the way historic ownership works is the Ottomans did own it. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you will have to hand back vast tracks of land all over the world.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nEven with the Rosetta stone it was taken from the French when The British defeated them in a campaign in Egypt (1800s), it was just a pretty cool looking rock back then but then became a valuable piece of history when it was deciphered by British archaeologists.", ">\n\nThe weird thing with the Rosetta Stone is that most of it's value comes from what was done with it, not what it did. There are other stones very similar to it that could have filled the same role, but it was the first to be deciphered and helped archeologists understand things in a whole new way. \nAs far as heritage, it's basically a rock with laws on it. Interesting, but not of major historical value(outside it's impact on archaeology) like a one of a kind sculpture or various other artifacts like things from the Parthenon that are actual, historically and culturally important things.", ">\n\nThat is actually pretty cool. Thank you.", ">\n\nYeah, there's a lot of virtually identical stele out there that could have done the exact same thing, many on display in Egypt and elsewhere. The only reason the Rosetta Stone matters historically is that it was the first one translated. \nIt's kind of like if you went to Canada and wrote a law on a wall in French, English, and a native language so everyone can understand it. Then a thousand years from now nobody knows French, they use it to decipher French. That's all the Rosetta Stone is, a law on a rock in three languages.", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nYeah, unfortunately getting a general consensus on accepting that it’s often more complicated than the moral outrage brigade like to make out is tricky.\nThere are absolutely, undeniably, artefacts that should be returned outright immediately, but there are also artefacts that can’t realistically be “returned” because they don’t have a safe home to be returned to and most scholars would agree on this, whether they’re British or otherwise. I believe a lot of these are actually classed as being on semi permanent loan anyway - I.e a museum wouldn’t be allowed to sell them and don’t “own” them.", ">\n\nIs Athens currently not a safe home for Ancient Greek artifacts? It was admittedly a few years ago, but when I went to the Parthenon I didn’t notice any wars or insurgencies or anything", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nGod this drives me mad\nIt makes us look like such pricks not to mention it’s not our stuff", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nStole them fair and square...", ">\n\nThey were bought from the occupying ottomans who ruled Greece at the time for hundreds of years. Before the ottomans it was Roman and before that independent city states. Look into the history of these statues. At the time they were about to be destroyed and reduced to limestone for building.", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nYes. As mortar in some building walls.", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nI went to the Parthenon Museum in Athens last summer and there is a room that has empty spaces on the walls where these marbles belong. Then I went to the British Museum to see the marbles- magnificent. The Brits bought them from the Turks, apparently legally, but they belong in Greece, in my opinion.", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nWell to be fair, it is a huge part of British culture to invade a country and then loot and exploit it until the inhabitants finally make it not worth the trouble anymore…", ">\n\nEh who's culture isn't it?", ">\n\nWell, they probably actually don't.", ">\n\nI grew up in the UK and lived most of my life there. We aren’t taught very much about the empire or the history of British foreign policy during our years at school. There’s a lot of pride in being British that exists within Britain itself, and it wasn’t until I moved abroad and saw for myself the impact of my nations actions that I started to see who we really are on the world stage. \nNow I’m in the position of trying to acknowledge the atrocities committed by my nation, without allowing that shame to subsume my entire national identity. I’m hoping to land somewhere in the middle; to gain a bit of perspective without completely hating myself and where I come from. Wish me luck.", ">\n\nMore like Culture Appropriation Secretary.", ">\n\nJohn Oliver on stolen antiquities in western museums: ‘Abject callousness on display’", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nIs agree, it’s been hundreds of years, just let it go, keep it in England, and no I’m not English or American, I’m from one of those third world places that was colonized by the Europeans, which doesn’t narrow it down much but still, it’s been hundreds of years, let the museums keep it, it’s not like they’re about to destroy them or something, they’re taking care of them", ">\n\nGreece also has a very nice museum, conveniently at the Acropolis, where they could be displayed and taken care of.", ">\n\nAnd I’m sure they have plenty of cool stuff in that museum already", ">\n\nThey do. But you know what would be even cooler? Having more of what originated there.", ">\n\nAll artifacts belong to where they were found. If safe, all artifacts must be returned to where they were found.", ">\n\nSo, does, say, the Koh-I-Noor go to India, or Pakistan? Both of them claim it. So do the Nepalese, IIRC.", ">\n\nI have a solution - break it into two equal pieces!", ">\n\nAh yes, King Solomon’s solution.", ">\n\nYeah no , imagine being proud that your nation was built upon genocide, slavery and petty theft.", ">\n\nOh, there's nothing \"petty\" about the theft involved in the British Museum's collection...", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nBritish Museum is an active crime scene.", ">\n\nHow culturally insensitive can the culture Secretary be! Perfectly demonstrates how the tory government are so utterly inept at every single level, not just the upper echelons. \nWhat a moron!", ">\n\nDid you catch the part where she said that, “it’s important that we stand up and protect our culture”. What the hell did she mean with that? Those are Greek cultural artifacts, as well as those created/produced many other cultures, to which she’s referring.", ">\n\n\nIt is important to stand up and protect our culture.\n\nLol, YOUR culture?", ">\n\nTo be fair, the solution isn't as simple as \"return it to Greece, it is ancient greek\".\nSome treasures belong to all mankind. As such, they must be available for all mankind to see, else soon there will be no good museums left. \nAlso, I do agree some treasures are better kept in foreign museums than in third-world countries. I'm brazilian, and we've already had Jules Rimet trophy melt down by robbers, a whole National Museum burnt to ashes and, just three days ago, a lot of treasures destroyed at Palácio do Planalto (our main government building) by bolsonarists terrorist mob.\nYet, it cannot be for free. And I also think this can't be simply bought, these treasures don't age like a normal trade good would. The best solution would be rental. \nBut what should be the price? UNESCO should create a subdivision to evaluate the price for such stuff. And nothing more fair than having the best museums, which has the best goods, paying the highest rentals for the rest of the countries. \n\"Ah, Louvre would pay gazillions, the ticket price would skyrocket!\". Yes, if the French government doesn't come for help. Which they should, since loads of tourists go to Paris to visit the Louvre! Also, this rental would enable the museums to return some treasures that don't really matter that much to them and would be better appreciated elsewhere.", ">\n\nGreece is more than stable enough to have the marbles in their Parthenon museum, which is considerably cheaper to visit than London.", ">\n\nAgree with Greece, but this is not the only argument I used.\nSome historical monuments should be available for the whole world to see, not only in their place of crafting. It shouldn't be free of charge, as it is now, this is absurd.\nIf we're talking about this particular example, The Parthenon sculptures is also a very extreme one. Parts of it are in London while the rest is in Greece. They should all be in one place, and since they are statues in their original place, this place should indeed be Greece. My argument was mostly about the origin place of art in general.", ">\n\nThe only reason the pyramids aren’t in England is they literally couldn’t steal them too.", ">\n\nSo many ignorant comments in here criticizing her. SMDH. What Redditors don't understand is taking cultural artifacts from other nations and showcasing them in a museum is one of Britain's greatest cultural traditions. Forcing museums to return these would take away a key part of British culture.", ">\n\nand French, and German, and Italian, American etc etc etc etc\nI love these threads where people seem to think only Britain has museums with global historical artefacts in them", ">\n\nI'm pretty sure they were being facetious....\n/f", ">\n\nWhat would have been left of these if they were not taken to the British museum? They were going the same way as all the monuments destroyed by Islamic state.", ">\n\n“We stole them fair and square.”\nThe only time stolen artifacts should remain in western museums is when their safety and proper care can’t be guaranteed in the home country due to political or civil unrest, or inadequate facilities/expertise. \nGreece by far has the ability to care for these they way they require. Afghanistan would not.", ">\n\nThe British Museum is a crime scene.", ">\n\nBut if we’d known we might have to give this stuff back, we never would have stolen it in the first place, or at the very least we would have kept it secret and not put on on display for everyone to see the evidence of our theft.", ">\n\nThe stole them fair and square.", ">\n\nGreek pantheon sculptures...", ">\n\nDon't you guys have like, half of Egypt in your museums?", ">\n\nLet them keep ‘em a little longer. They got nothing going for them. The way things have been I give them 5-10 more years.", ">\n\nCherishing the colonial pillaging heritage of the British Empire is like cherishing the Confederate flag in the US.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nIdk. Ideally collections would move around between multiple countries. Let the UN take ownership perhaps.", ">\n\nFight for it. Like good ol times.", ">\n\nBut that’s what entire British culture stands for, stealing other peoples culture and property", ">\n\n\"Put that thing back where it came from, or so help me god!\"", ">\n\n“We’re not done looking at it!”", ">\n\nIn other news, European colonizers refuse to return pillaged culturally-significant items because it makes them feel bad to return it.", ">\n\nWhen did they colonize Greece?", ">\n\nToday’s contribution to “Why Everybody Hates the English” was brought to you by the Tory Party.", ">\n\nI get that when a country has issues with terrorism, poverty, war or corruption there might be a case for keeping items of significance for safety's sake but Greece is hardly Afghanistan.", ">\n\nthe Parthenon itself is completely fucked from Athens' pollution", ">\n\nIt’s fucked because the “official authorities” aka the Ottomans that Elgen paid and therefore funded to take the marbles used it as an ammo storage and it blew up when the occupied citizens had a revolution", ">\n\nUtter thieving scum.", ">\n\nHonestly, I wish my government would at least try to fix our image on the world stage. This is embarrassing", ">\n\nThey stole it and now won’t return it.. uh.. say what now?", ">\n\nso stealers are keepers?", ">\n\nThat’s been the British Empire’s motto since its inception.", ">\n\nThe empire ended back in the sixties.", ">\n\n\"we sold those fair and square!\"", ">\n\nWhat proportion of present day inhabitants of Greece are genetically related to the Greeks who built the Parthenon? \nIIRC most of the original Greek population has been replaced by people of Turkish and Balkan origin. Current Greeks have no more claim to them than any other Europeans.\nThe ancient Greeks are original authors of almost all of contemporary European common culture, not just Greece.\nThe reason so much of antiquity is in Northern European museums is because the later inhabitants of Greece, North Africa, etc. thought so little of them and took such little care of them that they were happy to sell them.", ">\n\nWhat a knob of a cultural minister.", ">\n\nJust give them back. If I have to endure another of my own \"yeah, we stole them fair and square\" jokes...", ">\n\nSomehow they'll probably end up with Meghan after the divorce.", ">\n\nFailing to read the room\nOnly 20% oppose their repatriation", ">\n\nPretty sure she has an interest in this being employed by the organization holding the sculptures. Conflict of interest much?", ">\n\nMuch of Western society traces its cultural origins to the Roman Empire, and by extension (because of republicanism, Western philosophy, etc.) Ancient Greece. \nI don’t have a dog in this race, but that statement isn’t without context.", ">\n\nMight makes right. Greece, come and get them!", ">\n\nHow do you figure", ">\n\nNot done looking at ‘em yet!", ">\n\nThe article says the British bought them. Was it at least a fair offer the British gave?", ">\n\nThe article states,\n\nThey were removed in the 19th Century by British diplomat and soldier Lord Elgin. The British government bought them in 1816 and placed them in the British Museum.\n\nIt’s very questionable if Lord Elgin had the legal authority to remove the marbles from Greece, which was under Ottoman rule at the time. Because of this, the case is being made that the British Museum essentially bought stolen artifacts.", ">\n\nI mean Greece had been under Ottoman rule for four hundred years, and didn't become an independent national for another forty.\nRegardless of the debate about returning, it feels kind of dubious to suggest at the time the Ottoman's weren't the official authorities.", ">\n\nHowever, there’s even question that the Ottoman government had issued any type of permit for the marble to be taken out of the country.", ">\n\nYeah to me that sounds a much larger legal concern, than trying to suggest that by all reasonable purposes the Ottoman's weren't the legitimate government at the time and its their fault for not being able to see the future.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is...?", ">\n\nNo they don’t says Walkeralabamaranger.", ">\n\nSeparately, I had no idea the government \"owned\" Channel 4. I assumed it just had a special free to air licensing deal.", ">\n\noh surprise", ">\n\nThe Louvre is doing that puppet side eye right now…", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nAbsolute disgrace.", ">\n\n\"is that my statute?\" - Bluey Heeler\n\"I'm still playing with it!!\" - Muffin Heeler", ">\n\nAt the end of the day the issue is money. If the UK returned all of the artifacts then they would lose millions in tourism dollars every year. Greece would gain some of those millions hence they're fighting so hard.", ">\n\nNo bring them to Nashville", ">\n\nBritain more likely to go broke and flog off its collection to rando billionaires than return the good stuff.", ">\n\nAh yes, the PARTHENON'S STATUES belong... not near the parthenon.", ">\n\nCiting the ancient law of “no takesbacksees” Michelle then may have run away quickly, putting up two middle fingers yelling other obscenities.", ">\n\n\"neener-neerer-neener!\" 👉😝👈", ">\n\nDamn! That's some on point emoji usage.", ">\n\nOne of the best because, as absurd as it sounds, it's sort of true.", ">\n\nNot sort of. It's spot on.", ">\n\nNot really, most all of it was paid for or gifted. There's a metric shit ton of stuff in the museum's archives and most of it is dull as dog water, like pairs of canvas shoes bought by a tourist.", ">\n\nNah, “buying” artifacts at gunpoint is still bad. British people just like the illusion of propriety.", ">\n\nYou don't sound very educated on this matter and just seem to have a \"britain bad\" view. \nThe world believe it or not was not always peaceful. It's not like the UK was going to war to steal artefacts. \nA good example are these very pieces. We took them from the Ottoman empire... not the greeks. It's entirely different. The same ottoman empire that didn't care for these kind of works and actively destroyed all sorts of historically relevant stuff. \nWhat happens in these situations is the UK uniquely recognized the historical significance of things other nations and empires didn't and invested time and money to keep them safe. \nThen 100s of years pass by and the descendents of these empires that didn't care suddenly realise they should care and of course all the artefacts that were not taking are broken and burnt so they come after the UK accusing us of theft.", ">\n\nLike the old joke:\n\"Why are the pyramids in Egypt?\"\n\"Because they were too heavy to take to the British Museum\"", ">\n\nHave you seen how the Egyptians treat the ancient antiquity artifacts in their care? It would have been better for the pyramids if the English had stolen them. \nDon't get me wrong, the British are absolutely unredeemable historical bastards, but Egyptian artifacts are better off in a British museum than literally rotting in a shitty and poorly kept Egyptian warehouse or in some Egyptian oligarchs personal collection. Egypt doesn't deserve the artifacts from ancient antiquity that it has, and the current military dictatorship is only getting worse. \nPity the Egyptian people, because they are thoroughly screwed.", ">\n\nYou’re getting downvoted but you’re 100% correct. I was shocked at how poorly treated and kept the artifacts are in Egyptian museums. The famous Egyptian museum in Cairo has most artifacts literally piled unlabeled in corners, or on flimsy wooden chairs out in the open. People walk up and touch them and shit and they don’t care.", ">\n\nYes, and those artifacts are rightfully theirs to mistreat. No great white saviors needed.", ">\n\n\"theirs to mistreat\" is an odd way of looking at it. I guess you could say those in parts of Iraq and Syria were briefly I.S.'s to destroy?\nLeaving them out in the open to be touched by visitors is allowing them to be slowly destroyed, which is a shame.", ">\n\nAlong with the pyramids, Taj Mahal, Santas Workshop....\n... the great wall of China.... Uh! And Colloseum!", ">\n\nIt's just so convenient to have all the world's wonders in one convenient place... that we get to charge admittance fees to look at.", ">\n\nEntry to the British Museum is free.", ">\n\nWhile technically true, it’s probably the weakest pro-colonizer argument you could possibly make. Average museum fee for places that charge is, what, $10?\nBesides, it misses the main point that the museum is beneficial to the city it’s in. That’s true even if they don’t charge at the door.", ">\n\n“Technically true” <- you mean true right? Haha it’s not a technicality, entry to the museum is free", ">\n\nEnterance to the UK is not.", ">\n\nWhy is this downvoted? It’s true 🤨", ">\n\nMust have hit a sore spot with the Brexit crowd.", ">\n\nIs she planning to transport the Parthenon to the UK or just straight up conquer Greece?", ">\n\nRule Britannia begins to play", ">\n\nI can see this backfiring when Britain wants some deal with the EU. Greece will say 'fuck off'.", ">\n\nyeah, Greece blocked north macedonia for years over literally the name macedonia and the number of points on the star on their flag. the UK isn't getting anywhere near a favorable deal without giving the marbles back", ">\n\n\"It would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\"\nSorry, \"we stolen so many things\" is not a good enough reason for keeping stolen property.", ">\n\nThere are looted things in the British museum, Elgin brought these from the Ottoman authorities of Athens at the time, they were cutting statues up and firing them for lime.", ">\n\nConsidering that Greece led a revolution against the occupying Ottomans doesn’t exactly help the narrative. \nWe didn’t steal it a different occupying force did and we just paid them for the effort", ">\n\nThe marbles were bought in 1798. The revolution occured in 1821.\nThe marbles belong in greece, but it is not a looting issue in this case, just a moral one. Also, Greece was part of the Ottoman empire for over 5 centuries (1299–1820s). That isn't a short period of time.", ">\n\nThe point is they were bought by an occupying force so the justification isn’t really that great- hyperbole because the ottomans weren’t this bad but it’s like buying something from Belgium they took from the Congo", ">\n\nIt's difficult call it occupying force because the Greek state did not exist prior. Before the Ottomans it was Eastern Roman and prior to that singular city states or federation of states.", ">\n\nWow, just wow... \nIt most definitely was an occupying force and that's how Greeks, both then and now, view(ed) it. No one even debates that. I mean, there were over 100 separate Greek revolts against the Turks between 1453 and 1821. Greeks even called the occupation the \"Turkokratia\" (i.e. \"Turkish rule\" or \"Turkocracy\"). Terms like \"Turkish yoke\" were used by revolutionaries.\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire so your point is moot. Hellenization, according to Byzantologists (like Ostrogorsky), began in AD 610 and, by the 4th Crusade (1204), it was thoroughly Greek: the emperors were ethnically Greek during the middle to late period, it was reduced to only Greek majority territory, and explicit self-references to Hellenism were made. \nNot to mention foreigners (both Westerners and non-Westerners alike) referred to it as a \"Greek empire\" (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) or something akin to that: e.g. Georgian chroniclers literally used terms derived from \"Hellene\"—the Greek word for Greeks—to describe the people and the country as a whole; Arabs used both Rum and Yunan interchangeably to refer to Byzantine Greeks, considering them heirs of the classical Greeks; and so on. \nIn fact, the empire was so Greek that scholars have argued that it was arguably a Greek nation-state by modern standards: \n\"Byzantium may be defined as a multi-ethnic empire that emerged as a Christian empire, soon comprised the Hellenized empire of the East and ended its thousand-year history, in 1453, as a Greek Orthodox state: An empire that became a nation, almost by the modern meaning of the word\". (Hélène Ahrweiler, Les Européens, 150)\nFinally, to come full circle to the Greek Revolution, it's worth noting that the goal of the Greek revolutionaries was to free the Greek people and to re-establish the Eastern Roman Empire. Scholars like Ian N. Moles even have argued that the Greek Revolution was essentially an expression of medieval Greek nationalism dating to the 13th century.", ">\n\n\n\nAs for the Eastern Roman Empire, it was a Greek empire \n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). They even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\n\nOstrogorsky\n\n\nIs dated - it was written in the 1940s. Take Cameron, who wrote Byzantine Matters (2014):\n\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\n\nIt was not thoroughly Greek. It was a diverse culture crossing a vast array of near eastern and western cultures and north african (for a while) regions, with influences blended from all them. This one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \nAfter all, most of Greece was lost to the Turks 150 years before Constantinople fell.\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.", ">\n\n\nWhat? That is nonsense. It was even called \"New Rome\" after the split, and then Constantinople, after the Roman Emperor Constantine (born in Naissus, built by the Romans as part of the Via Militaris). \n\nYes, it was informally known as New Rome but that changes nothing: Russians view Moscow as the \"Third Rome\" so by your faulty logic the Russian Empire was... really Latin.\n\nThey even called it the \"Latin Empire\" after the 12th century.\n\nNo, they never did. The Crusaders who brutally sacked Constantinople (1204) named their short-lived occupation the \"Latin Empire of Constantinople\", which lasted till 1261. And you're showing how little you understand dating systems to boot: the 12th century refers to 1101 to 1200 while we're discussing 1204-1261 or the 13th century.\nBy the way, for primary source references of Franks referring to Byzantium as a \"Greek empire\" see Odo of Deuil's \"De profectione Ludovici VII in orientem\". All he does is attack \"the Greeks\" over and over again for the events of the 2nd Crusade. He even uses terms like “Greek trickery” (dolis Graecorum).\n\nThis one nation origin is nationalistic nonsense, downplaying how complex such a society was. During the time of the Eastern Roman Empire (as it is known by pretty much everyone), most of Greece was a poor backwater due to the low quality farmland. \n\nI spoke about a well-documented 600-year-old process of Hellenization that transformed the empire into a Greek one while you're creating a weird strawman about \"one nation origins\". I suggest you re-read what I wrote, multiple times if necessary.\n\n[Ostrogorsky's] book has a Slavist agenda, especially in relation to the so-called “dark ages” of the seventh to ninth centuries, and asserts a misguided though persistent doctrine of Byzantine feudalism.\n\nLol, you searched on reddit and found that reply and posted it here as evidence, didnt you? I'm sorry but reddit is not JSTOR and that particular view does not command scholarly consensus. Ostrogorsky is a renown Byzantologist and pretty much any academic writing on Byzantium utilizes him as a source. While entitled to her opinion, the same cannot be said of Avril Cameron.\nAlso, no idea how the issue of \"Slavism\" has relevance here since it's well known Pan-Slavism was hostile to Hellenism. In other words, if he really was a pan-Slavist (he wasn't) then that gives him more credibility as pan-Slavists of the time were attempting to minimize Greek cultural influence and history, not promote it (e.g. Russian pan-Slavists supported Bulgarian territorial claims against Greece, often with bizarre pseudo-historical justifications like \"Alexander the Great being a Bulgarian\", etc.)\n\nEdit: Greece was conquered by Rome in 146 BCE - the idea that the eastern roman empire was Greek is just... I don't know what to say.\n\nAdmitting that is akin to saying you're surprised to learn the Parthian Empire was Iranian. Most would be embarrassed... Then again the fact that you think 1261 was in the 12th century and that Byzantine Greeks renamed themselves the \"Latin Empire\" (!) says everything about your knowledge level.\nIf the Byzantine empire was not Greek in its late period, why do Western historians refer to the \"Greek Empire of Nicaea\" or \"Greek Empire of Trebizond\"? Both were successor empires while the Eastern Roman Empire was occupied by Franks (Frankokratia).\nIndeed, Emperor (of Nicaea) Theodore II Laskaris referred to the Eastern Roman Empire in regards to Western occupation saying \"Ελλήνων χριστωνυμούμενον κλέος ου σβέννυται\" (Greek Christian glory was never extinguished). Would you like more late-Byzantine imperial references to Hellenism?", ">\n\nI think you are talking past each other when explaining but then return to the same topic towards the end. \nYou are using references of the area being referred to as greek, to suggest that there was some nation that was pillaged. \nHe is suggesting that the area had a mix of greek and roman influences as evidence for it not being a singular greek state. \nUltimately, what is being discussed is did the Ottomans 'steal' this from 'the greek' and it seems like the other person is suggesting that there was 'the greek' but many 'greeks' and 'romans'.", ">\n\nShe said it would open a can of worms...welp...you think?", ">\n\nOne big thing I really feel is missing on the conversation is, ironically, the historical context as to how the statues got there. One has to realize that humanity didn't really care for historical artifacts that weren't of that persons religion until English and French nobles in the 1700-1800 began popularizing archeology and anthropology of other cultures or ancient civilizations with different religons, and these statues (or the Rosetta Stone) are a perfect example of that.\nOriginally, when the Earl of Elgian Thomas Bruce didn't intend on taking the statues (but rather make reproductions and paintings), but that changed when he saw the situation. Specifically, the Ottoman authorities in control of Greece used the Parthenon as a munitions store (that eventually exploded and caused damage to the statues) and then were planning on destroying the statues to turn them into lime mortar for construction.\nFrom there he purchased the statues (admittedly though means of questionable legality and ethics) from the Ottomans far higher than what they had valued it, which effectively saved the rest of the Parthenon and other Ancient Greek from being destroyed as the remaining artifacts were now too valuable to destroy.\nCountless of the other artifacts acquired by the British Museum have similar stories. Basically before that point, every civilization basically didn't care about artifacts that were from a religion other than their contemporary religion (Egypt didn't seriously excavate, preserve, or study pre-muslim sites and artifacts such as the Rosetta Stone until after figures such as Napoleon and Howard Carter promoted Egyptology) or when getting war loot, just generally scrapping it for materials to make something more current (such as the ottomans almost scrapping the marbles, or the Conquistadors smelting the Aztec artifacts they had acquired as ransom to ingots for shipping). Whatever your views on repatriation, do remember that countless artifacts and historical throughout the would have been destroyed or simply ignored if it wasn't for the historical impact institutions such as the British Museum had on appreciating humanity's past.", ">\n\nYeah thats fair and all, but when said artifact is a core part of the heritage of a country which very much takes extreme pride in its heritage and history, I think a case can be made to return it", ">\n\nA case can definitely be made to return it, but you have to balance it out with the rest of the context of they want to be truly proud of their heritage and history.\nSo for the case of the Parthenon, it is really important to point out the period of history of how the Greeks' could have lost so much more. It's easy for Greek politicians and Curators to say to the British that they just stole the artifacts, but it would be only a half truth and hide the full story. The more honest take would be to acknowledge that although the British used unethical methods to acquire the artifacts, these actions were nontheless instrumental to saving the rest of the Parthenon sculpture, if not the structure itself. \nLikewise on the British side, it is important to keep in mind that what we now acknowledge as looting historical artifacts to put into museums was, at least in that period's historical context, still a massive improvement to what almost every other civilization would do before (like the Turks in this case - scrap the artifacts from other or past cultures) for raw materials to erase the culture and build new things with it.\nPersonally, my solution for this case is to return most of the sculptures, but still keep a sample in the British Museums. That way most of the wrong can be corrected and the Greek museum can have a more complete museum, while the remaining statues in England and the empty spots in Greece would be a reminder of this period in the Parthenon's history and how close that without British intervention, so much more could have been lost.", ">\n\nNone of what you’re saying grants Britain the right to the artificats. Greek or otherwise. If they want to “keep” any artifacts, they should do so on loan and compensate the countries of origin.", ">\n\nI mean it sort of does especially ones that were paid for", ">\n\nNot when they weren’t sold by the true owners", ">\n\nWho decides who the true owner is?", ">\n\nCan’t wait to see Egypt asking for the return of certain obelisks", ">\n\nThey should give it to Nashville. Our Parthenon hasn't had the roof blown off by mad Turks. The stuff will stay dry there.", ">\n\nlol wonder where all the african artifacts in british museums belong?", ">\n\nOne day Egyptian Museum directors will steal the gates to Buckingham Palace to put them on display, while the Greeks acquire Big Ben and put it on display in the middle of some plaza.", ">\n\nYeah, if we sell them to Egypt and Greece then what recourse do we have. Wait 500 years and then claim they were stolen because.... \nYour talking about a nation that is going through 100 years of managed decline. We are pretty used to not having everything go our way. When was the last time Britain said a peep about our ancestral land of Normandy?", ">\n\nwell it sure the fuck would, wouldn't it?", ">\n\n\"Do you have a flag?\"", ">\n\nI’m sure she is saying this just as a dog-whistle and to make trouble with the EU. It’s probably why she was given the job, because she’s well qualified.", ">\n\n\"We stole them fair and square\".", ">\n\nDragon hoarding gold says all the gold belongs to dragon", ">\n\nI don't think they do, most British people don't even care if they stay or not.", ">\n\nThey are not even round like marbles should be...", ">\n\nHaha thanks for that", ">\n\nThey're really going with the \"If you gave back every stolen artefact from a museum you'd be left with an empty building.\" line of thinking huh?", ">\n\nMaybe not steal that much next time and create their own artifacts.", ">\n\nShe's not wrong that it absolutely opens a can of worms.\nI'm not saying it's moral to keep them, but literally every museum in the world having to reassess and potentially return large chunks of the collections is huge.\nNevermind figuring out who you send them back to and if they're even equipped to care for them.", ">\n\nThey were STOLEN, they aren't theirs to begin with.\nIt absolutely should open a can of worms, those worms belong in the ground.", ">\n\nThey were purchased by Elgin from the Turkish rulers of Greece, who were there for 400 years.", ">\n\nOnly according to Elgin himself. There are no Ottoman records of the supposed transaction.", ">\n\nHave Ottoman records been lost in the last 200 years?", ">\n\nThere are items in the British Museum from countries in turmoil, such that returning them to their countries of origin would risk their destruction. \nThe Parthenon marbles are not among them.", ">\n\nDon’t see Italy returning all the Obelisks the Romans looted to Egypt.", ">\n\nThis reminds me of this:\n“Why are the great pyramids in Egypt?”\nBecause they were too big to take back to England.", ">\n\nGenerally I’m supportive of returning cultural art theft. Modern museums can afford to pay royalties for art loans from indigenous cultures. The Parthenon marbles are an interesting case because the Parthenon was being used as an ammunition hub during the independence war before the British expeditionary force realized this danger and took the statues before its eventual destruction by the Turks. So… if they weren’t taken they wouldn’t exist which makes this a little more complicated than “bad British man stole native art” which is usually a pretty accurate story.", ">\n\nIf they were taken to be protected from the occupying Turks why haven’t they been returned now the Greece won its independence and the Ottomans don’t exist anymore", ">\n\nBecause there is no requirement for them to be returned. \nIt's a 'nice' thing to say you could put them back. But it's not required morally or ethically in this specific situation. \nAll you can do is appeal to nationism from this point on wards. If the British Government sold the London Bridge to some dude in the US, then that is that done and dusted. \nA British government 300 years in the future has no RIGHT to demand London Bridge back despite it's historical significance to us. \nWe could ask, but that's it. \nThis entire discussion hinges on supporting Greek Nationalism and putting down British Nationalism.", ">\n\nThe Acropolis Museum in Athens is a state-of-the-art facility and a must visit, imo, for anyone visiting Greece for the first time. It is downright heartbreaking to see how much of the Pediments and other pieces of cultural heritage have been taken.", ">\n\nMost of the heritage wasn't taken. It was ground down and used as building materials. \nIt's revisionist to go \"the reason so much is missing is because of theft\"", ">\n\nCan i go and steal her car, it belongs in my garage.", ">\n\nYou can buy her car, after which she has no claim to it.", ">\n\nI mean, that's how a transaction works.", ">\n\nI think their making a point that the Brits bought this from the ruling government at the time.", ">\n\nI suppose one thing I worry about with this kind of thing is it diminishes the ability for everyday folks to see historical curios from other cultures, to have a physical thing to observe for a sense of another place's history and stories.\nI feel like it would be more mutually advantageous for countries to lease their artifacts between each other on a rotational basis.", ">\n\nThese days it must be easy enough to 3D scan and print these things? Why not do that, then everyday folks from all over the world can see these 'historical curios' rather than those lucky enough to be in London or wherever.", ">\n\nCan you take the Salesforce Tower (innit)? \nSincerely, San Francisco", ">\n\nThat's about what a wrinkled old white guy would say. Anyone surprised?", ">\n\nWelcome, newcomers, to the debate about the Elgin Marbles. Which has been raging for many decades and nobody here has raised any new points, this issue has BEEN AROUND.", ">\n\nThey say of the Acropolis where the Parthenon is…", ">\n\nFFs, put them all in the same fecking place, then creates some high quality replicas to fill the space.", ">\n\nFFS. They were stolen. They aren't ours. And guess what, the whole \"It opens up a precedent to all our other museums...\" Yes. As if fucking should! The museums can either legitimately purchase or borrow items for display, but otherwise they should remain in the ownership of the country of origin. Much like anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.\n \nThe fact we lifted so much shit from around the world for Victorians to gawk at and make money from and still do isn't something the other countries should worry about - besides in negotiations on how much to charge for their items to be in an exhibition here.\n \nThe people against this will likely be a good number of Brexiteers too - happy to keep anything that isn't theirs, defiantly hypocritical when others demans/want the same. Typical British Exceptionalism.", ">\n\nThey weren't stolen at all. The Elgin Marbles were bought by Elgin from the Turks who ruled Greece at the time. They occupied Greece for 400 years, so weren't they the legitimate owners at that time? This has literally fuck all to do with 'Brexiteers' or 'British Exceptionalism', much as you might want that to be true.\n'anything from here in the UK should remain in the ownership of the UK unless te UK sells it etc.'. The rulers of Greece sold the Marbles to Elgin - a private buyer, he bought them himself and then sold them on to the British government.", ">\n\nEven if you consider colonial plunder legitimate, Elgin's document has never been verified and no Ottoman counterpart exists.", ">\n\nDo honestly think it possible that Elgin could have nicked them without anyone noticing, and snuck them out of the country? It's not like he could have stuffed them down his trousers and hoped no-one would clock him. Removing and exporting these huge pieces of marble was a major logistical operation.", ">\n\nFor starters, the Turks didn't give a solitary fuck about the Parthenon as a historical structure. They used its lead structures for shot. They only cared about Elgin having access to the site itself because it was a military fortificaiton. He was a British diplomat and entered under the guise of studying the sculptures, making casts and drawings and clearing debris. Yeah, he could have made off with every statue in there, the Turkish garrison wouldn't have given a shit.", ">\n\nI'm not sure if you're for or against them being taken!", ">\n\nThey would have shortly been recovered in the Greek war of independence. Greek rebels provided the Turkish garrison with lead shot when the Turks ran out of ammo so they would stop dismantling the Parthenon. Greek patriots bled and died fighting for their nation, past present and future, not skeevy opportunistic colonialist fuckwits. If Elgin hadn't made off with them they'd still be in Athens today.", ">\n\nGreece wasn't a nation prior to Ottoman rule. \nThis is exactly the revisionist bullshit that stops people being able to have productive discussions. \nGreece was a collection of states that shared a language. There was no ruler of greece. Artefacts from one state were not shared with artefacts from another state despite in modern times us viewing them as one thing.", ">\n\nreceipt of stolen goods is also a crime", ">\n\nWe was conquered 3 times let us keep our spoils pls", ">\n\nYeah, if you have to give back one piece of plundered wealth, you have to give it all back, and then thered be no British museum or reason to go to England! And who wants that?", ">\n\nGive the British Museum credit for saving the artifacts (e.g. money), but the world is different now so the decision to compensate the British Museum for that service they provided and pay for their return to the proper Acropolis Museum in Athens should be up to Greece at this point.", ">\n\nCan’t they make part of the museum be Greek land like an embassy?", ">\n\nThis might not mean much coming from a stupid American but I think they, along with the rest of humanity's cultural treasures, should be kept wherever it's safest be it in Greece, the UK, or in a sealed vault on the Moon guarded by hordes of ludicrously armed murderbots and enough nuclear missiles to glass the solar system. I don't trust politicians, middle-management, or anyone aside from the people actually caring for the artifacts to decide what's best for them.", ">\n\nIf you legally sell me a work of art then it belongs to me. Elgin bought them from the government, who were using the Parthenon as a storage dump at the time.", ">\n\nAs a Greek, I remember being in London for a few days and going to the museum and seeing the Parthenon pieces. It felt weird and a little angering, not gonna lie. I know the British like to use the excuse of \"instability/endangerment of historical artifacts\" as one of many excuses to hold onto such bits theye taken all over the globe, and in a few cases i could see it even being a valid one to postpone their transfer, but never an outright refusal to do so. \nAlso, Greece is kinda still in the middle of their seemingly-endless money troubles, and as a country which relies heavily on tourism for money(and also takes a lot of pride in their history) i think getting all the pieces would be pretty dang helpful for that.", ">\n\nThe excuse... if it's just an excuse then why don't you display the rest of the intact Parthenon then. oh wait... it wasn't just an excuse was it. \nThe only reason you exist to be able to feel any attachment is because your nation was saved from being wiped from history. You could have just been a region of Turkey. Consider yourself lucky not unlucky.", ">\n\nNo. No they don't.", ">\n\nJust build a real looking replica and ship the original back to where it originates, add some \"you can find the original here\" to the information sign and call it a day. \nBe honest: most people would be unable to distinguish original from fake anyway (me included) and it would create a link between different museums if done for more items (jewellery, weapons etc.)", ">\n\nActually I would rather have a museum of history which can display a coherant exhibition even with replicas than random collection of genuine knick-knacks museum happen to own.", ">\n\n\"We worked long and hard whipping our slaves to build those, give them back!\"", ">\n\nObviously in the wrong job if she believes that.", ">\n\n\"We can't return these because we stole a shitload more than this, and therefore it is somehow okay.\"", ">\n\n\nIt would \"open the gateway to the question of the entire contents of our museums\", she said.\n\nWe wouldn't want any scrutiny over our colonial pillage! We even took the trouble to launder the custody of some of those through middlemen!", ">\n\nHonestly, we have such a rich, vast and sometimes embarrassing history. Enough to fill 100 museums.\nGive the marbles back already.", ">\n\nkinda is tho innit" ]